Sola Fide??

[aubreyL]

Hey Everyone! I’ve been talking to this guy lately whose main problem w/ the Catholic Church is HOW Catholics believe they are saved. He says that they believe their works will get them to heaven and warns me against having a “works-based” salvation.
I’ve talked w/ him about it but still I’m not that great at defending my faith or explaining things in the best way…

So I was just looking for some advice about what to say to the ‘sola fide’ arguement and what the best way is to explain HOW Catholics believe they are saved.

Thanks and God Bless!

 

[diggerdomer]

Hey Everyone! I’ve been talking to this guy lately whose main problem w/ the Catholic Church is HOW Catholics believe they are saved. He says that they believe their works will get them to heaven and warns me against having a “works-based” salvation.
I’ve talked w/ him about it but still I’m not that great at defending my faith or explaining things in the best way…

So I was just looking for some advice about what to say to the ‘sola fide’ arguement and what the best way is to explain HOW Catholics believe they are saved.

Thanks and God Bless!

My personal thoughts:

Our works will not get us to heaven. Only God will.

But, our works may help those who do not yet know God. And as the Bible tells us, humans were created in the image of God, so everyone I encounter is in the same boat I’m in…created by God, in God’s image, loved by God, and so on. As Jesus sent the Apostles (Matt 28) we we are all sent.

Hope this helps.

 

[1edyson]

Salvation is a free gift on God, no act of faith, or good deed will warrant this free gift. All we need to do is to cooperate with Gods free gift of salvation and show our faith working through love.

 

[srferdave]

To start with turn it around and ask him why he believes in sole fide.

Tell him to look at James 2:24.

Sole fide was never taught in the early Church. It never came to exist until the 16th century.

 

[Todd_Easton]

See the section entitled, “What You Must Do to Be Saved,” in the Catholic Answers’ booklet, “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth: The Catholic Church and God’s Plan for You.”

 

[NHInsider]

Scripture says we are saved by grace, through faith, for works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
Catholics believe that - all of it - and don’t believe you can separate the parts.

“faith alone” is not Scriptural, ironically since it is generally attached to “sola scriptura”

 

[promethius]

Hey Everyone! I’ve been talking to this guy lately whose main problem w/ the Catholic Church is HOW Catholics believe they are saved. He says that they believe their works will get them to heaven and warns me against having a “works-based” salvation.
I’ve talked w/ him about it but still I’m not that great at defending my faith or explaining things in the best way…

So I was just looking for some advice about what to say to the ‘sola fide’ arguement and what the best way is to explain HOW Catholics believe they are saved.

Thanks and God Bless!

yep, NHInsider stole the words out of my keyboard. Sola Fide is a blasphemous man-made doctrine. The catholic church teaches Sola Venia, or saved by Grace, theology.

 

[JonNC]

Hey Everyone! I’ve been talking to this guy lately whose main problem w/ the Catholic Church is HOW Catholics believe they are saved. He says that they believe their works will get them to heaven and warns me against having a “works-based” salvation.
I’ve talked w/ him about it but still I’m not that great at defending my faith or explaining things in the best way…

So I was just looking for some advice about what to say to the ‘sola fide’ arguement and what the best way is to explain HOW Catholics believe they are saved.

Thanks and God Bless!

I don’t know if it would help, aubrey, but here is a statemetn agreed upon by both Catholics and Lutherans regarding justification.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: **By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.**11]

Jon

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Scripture says we are saved by grace, through faith, for works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
Catholics believe that - all of it - and don’t believe you can separate the parts.

“faith alone” is not Scriptural, ironically since it is generally attached to “sola scriptura”

Martin Luther is well known for removing scripture from the bible and adding the word “alone” to scripture.

Just another man made tradition from the 16th century.

 

[edjco]

Your friend is misstating the Catholic position. We believe we are saved by faith AND works. You can give him this quote from John Martignoni:
We have to have faith, but according to the Bible, how else is man saved? By doing the will of God (Matt 7:24), by producing good fruit (John 15:1-6), by keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17), by denying himself and picking up his cross daily (Luke 9:23), by caring for his family (1Tim 5:8), by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58), by forgiving the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15), by feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt 25:31-46), and by loving his brother (1 John 2:9-11).

 

[diggerdomer]

removing scripture from the bible.

I’m sorry…what? Can you explain what this means? Any examples? Thank you.

 

[The_Dude]

“by keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)”

If that is the test of our justification, seems rather frightening indeed:
“be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.’ This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.’”

Are these not commandments? Is anyone honestly keeping them fully (including both sins of omission and commission)? Of course that is not to say a justified Christian will not strive to perform the works outlined by Martignoni; sanctification is a necessary component of salvation and outgrowth of justification, but as the grounds for justification, that is a different question.

To the OP’s question, it seems a summary of RC teaching that’s more specific/accurate than just “faith + works” would be:
Saved by faith + lack of mortal sin (or equivalently absolution of all mortal sins) + baptism/eucharist. Implied in lack of mortal sin would be the grace of final perseverance. Implied in all of these are grace which the believer cooperates with or may resist, cooperation itself being an effect of grace, resistance fault of the sinner.

Further than that would be works of supererogation (counsels of poverty/chastity/obedience) which goes “above and beyond” the minimum for salvation/justification described above and adds to heavenly glory/treasure. Makes sense in the RC scheme of things and how concupiscence is viewed, but such a concept (along with related treasury of merit) cannot really fit within a sola fidean framework.

“Martin Luther is well known for removing scripture from the bible and adding the word “alone” to scripture.”

The term sola fide was used in some translations of Romans and some fathers before Luther. And, no, that does not mean that they were using it in the same sense he was. But he did not add it out of the blue.

 

[paul_c]

You guys are making this too complicated.

The first step for salvation is to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy spirit… This gives you suffiicent sanctifying grace to be saved. No works are required. From that point on, you need to stay in the state of Grace. This is done by loving God and Neighbor and gaining additional grace through the eucharist. I think most people know inately what is sanctifying and what is sinful. If you should fall from Grace through sin, you can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation, if you confess earnestly, repent and do adequate penance.

So faith plays a big role in initial justification because you won’t seek baptism without faith. As for infants being baptized, they benefit from the faith of their parents. But faith alone isn’t sanctifying, that requires works of love. And we must be holy to be with God in Heaven.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hey Everyone! I’ve been talking to this guy lately whose main problem w/ the Catholic Church is HOW Catholics believe they are saved. He says that they believe their works will get them to heaven and warns me against having a “works-based” salvation.
I’ve talked w/ him about it but still I’m not that great at defending my faith or explaining things in the best way…

So I was just looking for some advice about what to say to the ‘sola fide’ arguement and what the best way is to explain HOW Catholics believe they are saved.

Thanks and God Bless!

I think this guy must also believe in works based faith since he makes a work out of worrying about Catholics and creating problems and evangelizing his worry to you and others so we all have to work to fix his problems.

The real problem is that he has a deficient faith.

Tell him Catholics have a greater faith in God than he does since we know we exceed the requirements by having faith + works. Faith gets one to the door to heaven but one must perspire to knock to get the door to open then step into the foyer. Those that do this minimal work are “the least in the kingdom”. But those who bring friends of thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold will be among the greatest esteemed in heaven for bringing their brothers and sisters to God.

Ask your friend if one accidentally “works” if they invalidate their faith and lose it? Or are works one of those “unforgivable” sins that can’t be forgiven once we are “saved”?

Ask your friend if one loves their neighbor in addition to having faith if that works against them?

Ask your friend if one is merciful to others and forgives them their debts if that works against them?

Ask your friend if one is baptized if that works to reduce one’s faith?

Ask your friend if one obeys the Lord and receives his Body & Blood worthily if that works to diminishe one’s faith and condemns him?

Ask your friend if one accepts the authority of those who he appointed as his church leaders (e.g. the apostolic succession) if that works to deny one’s faith and condemns us?

Ask your friend if one is charitable and helps the poor or feeds the hungry or assists the widow or works for justice if that works to blots out our faith?

Ask your friend if the apostles all lost their faith for doing the works of the bible in “The ACTS of The Apostles” and were condemned for working?

Ask your friend if Jesus meant if we just had faith that the work of the harvest in Luke 10:2 would get done by God’s angels? Or was Jesus prophesying about Protestant aversion and fear of perspiration and counting on them to pray that Catholics would come around and do the dirty work for them?

*Luke 10:2
And He was saying to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to **send out laborers *into His harvest.

Ask your friend if apart from doing the work of flapping his lips to “profess the Lord” as if flying to heaven if he has ever labored to open and read his bible and knows the slightest thing about Jesus and what He commanded us and still thinks he has more than a lip service faith and stands a chance of flapping him all the way up to heaven and saving him?

Tell him Jesus warned us against lip service Christians when He told us “not all who call me Lord Lord will enter My kingdom but HE who DOES My Father’s will.” Sounds like works to me…

James

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I’m sorry…what? Can you explain what this means? Any examples? Thank you.

So as not to use a “biased” Catholic source I will use Wikipedia:

Initially Luther had a low view of the books of Esther, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. He called **the Epistle of James “an epistle of straw,” **finding little in it that pointed to Christ and His saving work. He also had harsh words for **the book of Revelation, saying that he could “in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.”**6] He had reason to question the apostolicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation because the early church categorized these books as antilegomena, meaning that they were not accepted without reservation as canonical. Luther did not, however, remove them from his editions of the Scriptures. His views on some of these books changed in later years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible

The church of Martin Luther (or Lutheranism) is founded and originally designed by the 16th century Monk that at one time praised the Pope and the Church (see sermon on St Peter 1516). Later to become a person who rejected his own beliefs and vows to God to lead the world in to revolt.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther#Luther.27s_translation_of_the_Bible

As Run DMC said in ‘Proud to be Black’, “it aint a mystery it’s history”.

 

[aubreyL]

Thanks everyone very much for your replies!

Could y’all explain the exact Church teaching on faith and works in relation to salvation?