Sola Scriptura

[Pwrlftr]

Pwrlftr-

Congratulations on joining the Church…I made the same decision 30 years ago come August.

Regarding sola scriptura, I think one of the difficulties that Catholics have with this doctrine (aside from the error itself) is that there does not seem to be a single definition of sola scriptura.

Dave Armstrong recently posted three definitions by prominent Protestant apologists that were similar in many respects but still different in wording and emphasis.

I understand why you have taken issue with some Catholics who “dish it out” but can’t “take it”…that is a separate problem.

However, it is also understandable that Catholics are mischaracterizing sola scriptura given that Protestants themselves are not in complete agreement over what it means.

Peace.

Thanks for your post Randy.

It is true that there is no “one” definition of sola scriptura. I haven’t paid a lot of attention to Dave on this issue (or many others for that matter) so if you could provide a link I would appreciate it. Is it a case of a distinction without a difference or maybe there are real differences?

That said, a decent place to start looking at “sola scriptura” would be the confessions that came out of the reformation. In American evangelicalism there seems to be a general departure from the prinicples of the reformation so I would bet you that a large number of protestants have never even heard the phrase “sola scriptura” much less know what it means. Another place to look would be the various debates between the Pacwa’s and Madrid’s of the Catholic apologetic world on the topic of sola scriptura.

While there are no doubt protestants who engage in “solo scriptura”, I don’t know of many. A common misconception is that if a protestant uses some type of study aide such as a commentary he is somehow violating the principle of sola scriptura.

There should be some type of rule so that at the beginning of every thread on SS a definition must be posted of what SS is going to be for that thread and it’s participants.

 

[JRKH]

As you know I am converting to the Church but the thing I find most interesting about this board is not the defense of the Catholic faith but rather is the pious hypocrisy of many Catholic posters.

If a protestant came here and said:
“…such and such “insert Catholic belief” is ridiculous…” you would be outraged but don’t seem to have any problem engaging in the same behaviour that you would no doubt find offesive were it directed either at you or the Church.

Pwrlftr,
You are quite right. This board is indeed a real cross section of believers and some are just not very …uummmm… shall we say circumspect in how they express things - and it is true of both catholic and non-catholic posters.
When I see such things it makes me try even harder to be more clear, charitable, and yet firm, in expressing myself. We can all learn, even from the “pious hypocrisy of many Catholic posters”, as you say, as well at those who are not Catholic.

Saw this in this mornings paper:

We learn and we grow.
May God be with us.

Peace
James

 

[Pwrlftr]

Pwrlftr,
You are quite right. This board is indeed a real cross section of believers and some are just not very …uummmm… shall we say circumspect in how they express things - and it is true of both catholic and non-catholic posters.
When I see such things it makes me try even harder to be more clear, charitable, and yet firm, in expressing myself. We can all learn, even from the “pious hypocrisy of many Catholic posters”, as you say, as well at those who are not Catholic.

We learn and we grow.
May God be with us.

Peace
James

Thaks for your post.

As you know, or maybe you don’t know, I am converting this year and will be Catholic in the spring.

I shared the following w/ one other postter and will share it with you too. I have been considering converting for around 10 years and probably would have done it a year earlier had I not started posting at CAF. The hostility of some posters to anyone who isn’t Catholic was an eye opener. I hadn’t encountered that at any of the parishes I had visited. I suspect the anonymity of the 'net has something to do with that.

IMHO, or maybe not so humbe opinion, it would be much better to post the Catholic side as firmly and politely as you can and no one should be surprised when a non-Catholic remains a non-Catholic despite the sometimes brilliant defense of the Church.

I guess what I am trying to say is you will attract a lot more flies with honey than w/ vinegar.

If I were a moderator I would ban the use of “anti-Catholic”, It’s a term that is used way to much.

You are also correct in your assesment of non-Catholic posters too. Some are very rude but there just aren’t as many of them.

In the end, the best thing you can do is to be charitable. Of course i don’t listen to my own advice sometimes

 

[JRKH]

Thaks for your post.

As you know, or maybe you don’t know, I am converting this year and will be Catholic in the spring.

I shared the following w/ one other postter and will share it with you too. I have been considering converting for around 10 years and probably would have done it a year earlier had I not started posting at CAF. The hostility of some posters to anyone who isn’t Catholic was an eye opener. I hadn’t encountered that at any of the parishes I had visited. I suspect the anonymity of the 'net has something to do with that.

IMHO, or maybe not so humbe opinion, it would be much better to post the Catholic side as firmly and politely as you can and no one should be surprised when a non-Catholic remains a non-Catholic despite the sometimes brilliant defense of the Church.

I guess what I am trying to say is you will attract a lot more flies with honey than w/ vinegar.

If I were a moderator I would ban the use of “anti-Catholic”, It’s a term that is used way to much.

You are also correct in your assesment of non-Catholic posters too. Some are very rude but there just aren’t as many of them.

In the end, the best thing you can do is to be charitable. Of course i don’t listen to my own advice sometimes

Absolutely on all accounts.

I highlighted the honey/vinegar statement, first because it’s true, and second because it reminds me of a couple of other analogies that I thought of.
Unfortunately, these analogies work better as pictures than words, and I can’t draw worth :twocents:
The first analogy is that you can’t “PUSH” someone toward God without getting behind them and thus putting yourself further from God than they are.
The second analogy is that of a Rope. You can draw someone toward God with the Rope of reason, but you cannot “Push” a Rope and get anywhere.

In each case it is crucial that we remain near to God so that we may draw others to Him. When we move away from Him, even to seek after lost lambs, we imperil ourselves as well as the souls we seek to help.

Peace
James

 

[Pwrlftr]

Absolutely on all accounts.

I highlighted the honey/vinegar statement, first because it’s true, and second because it reminds me of a couple of other analogies that I thought of.
Unfortunately, these analogies work better as pictures than words, and I can’t draw worth :twocents:
The first analogy is that you can’t “PUSH” someone toward God without getting behind them and thus putting yourself further from God than they are.**
The second analogy is that of a Rope. You can draw someone toward God with the Rope of reason, but you cannot “Push” a Rope and get anywhere. **
In each case it is crucial that we remain near to God so that we may draw others to Him. When we move away from Him, even to seek after lost lambs, we imperil ourselves as well as the souls we seek to help.

Peace
James

I like both analogies, especilly the first one. I never thought about it like that but believe that it’s spot on.

I have a brother who is a very sucessful (as far as material wealth goes) but who is as wild as one could get and remain out of jail. He has everything and everything in abundance: beautiful women, lots and lots of cash, motorcycles, a huge boat, big house, very athletic, lots of friends, very happy go lucky guy but no time for God and no interest either.

One of his former employees became a Christian. This guy and I were bouncers at one of my brothers bars when I was going to school. I’m a big guy but this guy was a huge biker dude. Tattoos everywhere, shaved head w/ a spider web tat on his skull, long beard and he had anything but a heart of gold…just a mean and nasty individual (spent a few years a federal “facility”). I hated working with this guy 'cuz he scared the you know what out of me. Anyway, this guy has become a Christian and the change in this guy is phenomenal. They guy went from being a very bad guy to living the Christian life and while it didn’t happen overnight it happened and happened relatively quick.

My brother has encountered a lot of Christians and no arguments have swayed him or even interested him. However, the change his former employee went through has my brother, and a lot of others too, very intrigued.

No fancy arguments or scripture quotes were able to move my brother like the change he saw in this one individual. Now, my brother isn’t a Christian yet and may never be but I can say that this is the most interested he’s been in God. I think it’s the change he has seen in the biker guy that has done it.

On the forums of course no one really know who we are or what we are really like but the way in which we choose to post and the words we choose to use reveal a lot about us and other folks pick up on that quickly.

After having been bludgeoned several time here at CAF I can only say it made me more resistant and maybe more determined not to convert. I think we can make a strong case for the faith without resorting to “You must be an idiot to not be Catholic” kind of thing.

I think I have rambled a little bit but I have enjoyed our posts. Hopefully this makes sense.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thanks for your post Randy.

It is true that there is no “one” definition of sola scriptura. I haven’t paid a lot of attention to Dave on this issue (or many others for that matter) so if you could provide a link I would appreciate it. Is it a case of a distinction without a difference or maybe there are real differences?

That said, a decent place to start looking at “sola scriptura” would be the confessions that came out of the reformation. In American evangelicalism there seems to be a general departure from the prinicples of the reformation so I would bet you that a large number of protestants have never even heard the phrase “sola scriptura” much less know what it means. Another place to look would be the various debates between the Pacwa’s and Madrid’s of the Catholic apologetic world on the topic of sola scriptura.

While there are no doubt protestants who engage in “solo scriptura”, I don’t know of many. A common misconception is that if a protestant uses some type of study aide such as a commentary he is somehow violating the principle of sola scriptura.

There should be some type of rule so that at the beginning of every thread on SS a definition must be posted of what SS is going to be for that thread and it’s participants.

I’ll PM a link to Dave’s site since we’re not allowed to “board swarm”.

As for the debates, I felt that Madrid bested James White fairly handily in their debate…the Bible simply does not teach sola scriptura.

 

[Pwrlftr]

I’ll PM a link to Dave’s site since we’re not allowed to “board swarm”.

As for the debates, I felt that Madrid bested James White fairly handily in their debate…the Bible simply does not teach sola scriptura.

I gotta tell you that I think White generally does very well in the debates but I have to give Madrid the “W” in this one.

Usually I just try to listen and take in as much as I can from both sides but Madrid in this debate was on.

Thanks for the link. I’ll take a look at it.

 

[NotWorthy]

If I were a moderator I would ban the use of “anti-Catholic”, It’s a term that is used way to much.

I’ve got an idea.

Spend 30 days on Carm’s Forums and then tell me if any of the posters on CAF are anti-Catholic. Those guys over there have a little bit of an axe to grind.

 

[Pwrlftr]

I’ve got an idea.

Spend 30 days on Carm’s Forums and then tell me if any of the posters on CAF are anti-Catholic. Those guys over there have a little bit of an axe to grind.

Really…I always found the CARM posters to be the most open minded and civil people of any.

 

[NotWorthy]

Really…I always found the CARM posters to be the most open minded and civil people of any.

OK, I’m looking for the “joking” icon, but I don’t see it. Did you forget to add it?

Tell you what. Go to Carm and tell them you are in the process of converting and see how “open minded” they are.

 

[Pwrlftr]

OK, I’m looking for the “joking” icon, but I don’t see it. Did you forget to add it?

Tell you what. Go to Carm and tell them you are in the process of converting and see how “open minded” they are.

NotWorthy,

I am sure they would welcome me with open arms…as they were tying me to the stake to be burnt alive.

I thought the scarcasm was soooooooooooooooo obvious that I didin’t need a smilie or anything.

 

[Pwrlftr]

For any Catholic who doesn’t know about carm…I personally wouldn’t go there. They are a little…well a lot over the top.

Then again if you want to engage in a true exercise of futility…you will find it at carm.

 

[JRKH]

I like both analogies, especilly the first one. I never thought about it like that but believe that it’s spot on.

I have a brother who is a very sucessful (as far as material wealth goes) but who is as wild as one could get and remain out of jail. He has everything and everything in abundance: beautiful women, lots and lots of cash, motorcycles, a huge boat, big house, very athletic, lots of friends, very happy go lucky guy but no time for God and no interest either.

One of his former employees became a Christian. This guy and I were bouncers at one of my brothers bars when I was going to school. I’m a big guy but this guy was a huge biker dude. Tattoos everywhere, shaved head w/ a spider web tat on his skull, long beard and he had anything but a heart of gold…just a mean and nasty individual (spent a few years a federal “facility”). I hated working with this guy 'cuz he scared the you know what out of me. Anyway, this guy has become a Christian and the change in this guy is phenomenal. They guy went from being a very bad guy to living the Christian life and while it didn’t happen overnight it happened and happened relatively quick.

My brother has encountered a lot of Christians and no arguments have swayed him or even interested him. However, the change his former employee went through has my brother, and a lot of others too, very intrigued.

No fancy arguments or scripture quotes were able to move my brother like the change he saw in this one individual. Now, my brother isn’t a Christian yet and may never be but I can say that this is the most interested he’s been in God. I think it’s the change he has seen in the biker guy that has done it.

On the forums of course no one really know who we are or what we are really like but the way in which we choose to post and the words we choose to use reveal a lot about us and other folks pick up on that quickly.

After having been bludgeoned several time here at CAF I can only say it made me more resistant and maybe more determined not to convert. I think we can make a strong case for the faith without resorting to “You must be an idiot to not be Catholic” kind of thing.

I think I have rambled a little bit but I have enjoyed our posts. Hopefully this makes sense.

I just want to thank you for the moving testimony re: your brother and your biker aquaintance. The Holy Spirit does indeed work in mysterious ways.

Maybe, if you can get this Biker fella all the way into The Church Catholic, he’d make a great usher and people would be less likely to rush the door after mass. (Bouncer in reverse?? )

Sorry, had to say it.

Peace
James

 

[Pwrlftr]

Maybe, if you can get this Biker fella all the way into The Church Catholic, he’d make a great usher and people would be less likely to rush the door after mass. (Bouncer in reverse?? )

Sorry, had to say it.

Peace
James

Well…I’ve heard priests say that they have heard it all in the confessional…it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall should Mongo (not his real name) decide to become Catholic.

I do think he would end the race to the door in whatever parish he would end up in should he decide to become an usher or at least divert the traffic to another door further away from him.