Some Catholics and Mary

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Malia_Belen said:
I know for the most part Catholics don’t worship Mary but ask her to pray for them. However, the part that still kind of irks me is that I still feel that this isn’t true in many cases. Sometimes, I’ll watch television and see a Catholic asking Mary to do something for them other than pray and other times it seems that some Catholics do all their praying to Mary/Saint and not to the God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

So, I have two questions when does veneration become worship to a Catholic?
and two if I can come to understand that Mary does deserve special honors does that mean I would have to pray the rosary and the Hail Mary to become Catholic?
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Dear Malia,

If your mother asked you to do something for her, would you do it?
 
Malia_Belen said:
Marco: That was great how you explained that real Catholics understand that they are only asking Mary to pray for them. They just sort of use a short cut instead of saying “Mary please pray for me about…” Do I understand this correctly?
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Yes. I probably do it myself such that if an outsider were to hear my words apart from seeing my heart might misunderstand my perspective of Mary. But my disposition, the place of my heart, understands that when I ask her for something I am asking her for intercession to get the answer from Christ the king.

There are two Biblical passages you can look at that reveal the nature of this. In the Old Testament, the mother of the king held a special place of counsel, especially on behalf of the people of God. This is particularly manifested in the following:*1 Kings 2:17-20 So he continued, “Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife.” “Very well,” Bathsheba [Solomon’s Queen mother] replied, “I will speak to the king for you.” When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand. “I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” **The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”***Now in the OT, the mother does not get what she wants. Solomon did not grant the petition. But as we know, the OT is the inferior type of what was to come (Hag 2:9, 2 Cor 3:11). There are other passages in the OT reflecting this, but let’s keep it simple for the moment. Now, in the New Testament, who is the “mother of the king”----Mary. There is a profound incident in the NT in which Mary intercedes for the people:*John 2:1-9 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.” “Dear woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.” His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons. Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.” They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted **the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.***You see Mary stepping in between the wedding guests and Jesus. Now what is significant about this taking place at a wedding? Who do the wedding guests represent? Parables told by Jesus Himself provide the clue. These parables are the parables of the wedding feast! (Mt 22:2-14; Lk 14:16-24) In these parables, the true guests of the wedding are the elect. What revelation then tells us is that there is wisdom in approaching the king through the mother. For the king honors his mother in accord with the commandments. He honors her as mother and as queen.

So you see, approaching Jesus through Mary is not an act of circumventing. It is rather demonstrating yourself as one of the elect wedding guests, who, even if you ask for the smallest request of a wine refill, can have confidence that the king will respond! :o
 
Drawmack said:
But, don’t you think it is a bit dangerous to drop the asking for prayer from a one’s speech? I think that would make it easier to cross the line into actual worship. I’m not saying that this does cross the line, in and of itself, because worship is what happens in the heart and not with the lips. However, I think that a person who stops using the words the ask Mary to pray for them is coming dangerously close to worship even if they are not worshiping and that this danger should be avoided.
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I disagree. When one fully grasps the nature of Mary’s advocacy, the approach that is made to her is habitual. I think it would be difficult if not impossible for a person to “accidentally” give Mary latria worship by using the “wrong words” when their heart is oriented properly from the get-go.

As you can read in my post to Malia, what I meant was if an outsider could “overhear” my prayer they might misunderstand. If I say to Mary “Please obtain for me x, y, z…” they might think I wanted Mary to be the recipient and final end to the prayer. Perhaps they think I view her as a divine goddess. But they do not know the theology to which I hold. All I was saying to Malia is that perhaps she witnessed someone who “appeared” to exercise improper worship of Mary but such may not be the case. When I offer prayers for other non-Catholics on other forums or here, I typically will offer the prayer to the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit so as not to scandalize them in their time of need.

Even though it is possible to exercise undue latria worship to Mary, I personally am not aware of Catholic who does, based on my knowledge of their theology.
 
A lot of the reason why people think Catholics worship Mary is because Catholics do believe that in many ways Mary is “higher” than we are. We believe that she is the Queen of Heaven, our spiritual mother, and the New Eve. We do believe that she has a special rank and power (just like angels have a certain role and abilities, but are dependent on God). We affirm these things while stating that she is still only a creature and that her possession of these titles are the will of God for her and wouldn’t be possible without Him. So Catholics treat her like a Queen or Mother, because that’s what we believe. Others interpret this as worshiping Mary because they don’t understand the Catholic doctrines on Mary or why we hold them.

I second the above poster in recommending Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen.
Also, you can listen to his discussion of the book (originally on EWTN) for free here (scroll down until you find hail holy queen):
catholicaudio.blogspot.com/search/label/SPEAKER%3A%20Scott%20Hahn
It covers pretty much all the same material as the book.

Another good source for Marian teaching is a compilation of Cardinal Newman’s work on “Mary the New Eve”.
christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/newman1.html
christendom-awake.org/pages/marian/newman2.html

I was always Catholic, but raised very generically Christian (no emphasis on Mary). The two works I listed above by Newman and Hahn really helped me understand many things and got rid of my misgivings about Mary. It really changes the way you view Christianity having a proper (Catholic) understanding of the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I think that any protestant who is at all open-minded about Catholicism would benefit greatly from reading and mulling over these two works.
 
Drawmack said:
But, don’t you think it is a bit dangerous to drop the asking for prayer from a one’s speech? I think that would make it easier to cross the line into actual worship. I’m not saying that this does cross the line, in and of itself, because worship is what happens in the heart and not with the lips. However, I think that a person who stops using the words the ask Mary to pray for them is coming dangerously close to worship even if they are not worshiping and that this danger should be avoided.
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I sometimes ask my guardian angel for help in some regard other than praying for me. “Keep me safe”. “protect me from evil ones”. I figure people in scripture talk with angels, why can’t I? My angel is right here as I type this and yours is right with you as you read this.
I realize, however, that I am only talking with a creature and that this creature (I don’t think that this hurts my angels feelings for me to tell you this) only has the ability to help me because God gave him that ability and that duty.

It’s the same thing with the Virgin Mary. I am not aware of any teaching of the Church which says that the Virgin Mary can only help us by praying. When the Virgin Mary or another saint appears to us, (like at Fatima) she is helping us in a way other than praying for us.

“Eye has not seen, ear has not heard what God has ready for those who love Him.” My point is if somebody says “Mary, help me do X” and God has given her the ability and go ahead to help in this situation, then she’ll do it. If she doesn’t have that ability, then she can pray to God for Him to help. Either way it’s by the power of God, through the agency of Mary that the person received help. It’s one member of the Body of Christ helping the other. I don’t think that it blurs the line between Creator and creature or between worship and asking for intercession. Just because Michael the archangel thrust Satan down out of heaven, doesn’t mean that he is God, only that he has a different role and place in the plan of God and has been endowed with great power. Catholics believe that Mary is our queen and mother (for the reasoning on this, read the works in my post above). Who knows what God has in store for her? Or for any of us, for that matter?
For Catholics, the communion of saints and the body of Christ extends into heaven and isn’t just on earth. The eye can’t say to the hand, ‘I don’t need you’ or the head say to the feet, ‘I don’t need you!’. God’s will for us to help each other out doesn’t stop at death in Catholic theology.
 
Malia_Belen said:
I know for the most part Catholics don’t worship Mary but ask her to pray for them. However, the part that still kind of irks me is that I still feel that this isn’t true in many cases. Sometimes, I’ll watch television and see a Catholic asking Mary to do something for them other than pray and other times it seems that some Catholics do all their praying to Mary/Saint and not to the God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

So, I have two questions when does veneration become worship to a Catholic?
and two if I can come to understand that Mary does deserve special honors does that mean I would have to pray the rosary and the Hail Mary to become Catholic?
Click to expand...
It is very usual for Protestants to have reservations about what they see as excessive veneration to the Virgin Mary. It was a major difficulty for John Henry Newman, and he had an intense devotion to the Virgin Mary even as an Anglican Priest.

The important thing to remember is that the Catholic Church does not teach or condone an excessive devotion to the Virgin Mary, but rather one that is in proportion to our own spirituality. IOW, we are always to understand that Jesus Christ is our Divine Mediator and Savior, deserving our Worship. His mother and ours, is also a powerful intercessor with God, as I am sure you believe yourself. However, you are never to feel forced or obligated to have some minimum devotion to her. If you are only able to focus your prayers entirely on Jesus Christ, that would be entirely Catholic, and at the same time, most pleasing to our Blessed Mother! 🙂
 
Malia_Belen said:
I know for the most part Catholics don’t worship Mary but ask her to pray for them. However, the part that still kind of irks me is that I still feel that this isn’t true in many cases. Sometimes, I’ll watch television and see a Catholic asking Mary to do something for them other than pray and other times it seems that some Catholics do all their praying to Mary/Saint and not to the God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

So, I have two questions when does veneration become worship to a Catholic?
and two if I can come to understand that Mary does deserve special honors does that mean I would have to pray the rosary and the Hail Mary to become Catholic?
Click to expand...
Malia,
I don’t know which faith communion you are coming from, but amongst Lutherans there is sometimes poor catechesis that leads to misunderstanding and poor practices. Catholicism has the same problem, and if some Catholics improperly practice marian devotion, it is from poor catechesis, because the CC does not teach the worship of Mary.
If it is your intention to become Catholic, learn what the CC teaches, and ignore the rest.
Just my 2 cents.
Jon
 
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