Some help with the Catholic concept of conversion

[Jerry-Jet]

I think it is Satanic to suggest to anyone that they join the Masons!

I also think it is Satanic to suggest that I think the Catholic Church is a “social club”

OR

that it is “slobbering for new members so as to drive up revenues”.

Where have I ever said anything to suggest that I’m a "Liturgy addict fanbois or that I’m “looking for the next cool religious experience”?

I’m not looking for the next cool religious experience but I do think that the people who heard Peter preach at Pentecost did receive a Profound religious experience.

If the Holy Spirit wanted that experience for them to also be “cool” it wouldn’t bother me in the least–I guess it would bother some people.

And who is against catechesis and yes everyone should know as much as possible about the faith–the last time I checked however the Catholic Church doesn’t require everyone who joins it to be a theologian.

Look there’s no law against a Catholic parrish having more than one RCIA class a year and there’s also no law against the Catholic Church receiving members into it who do have a basic knowledge of the Catholic faith without alot of additional catechesis.

While RCIA is undoubtedly good for everyone–some people have learned much about the Catholic faith and actually know much more about it than the good people who are teaching RCIA!

That’s not a knock against the RCIA instructors–that’s just saying that some people already know the Catholic faith and could have had a conversion experience.

“Conversion experience” isn’t what anyone should seek or what should constitute entry into the Catholic Church–all I’m saying is that it is not a Dirty word.

God does convert people to the Catholic faith and sometimes the major part of that can be a singular event that a person experiences. There’s nothing wrong with that!

And just because that happens doesn’t mean that a person doesn’t become converted more and more to God and the Catholic faith over their entire lifetime.

Nor does it mean that they shouldn’t undergo catechesis and never stop learning about the Catholic faith.

What I’m really getting at is that Catholic parrishes shouldn’t treat every “Convert” to the Catholic faith with a “One size fits all” approach of RCIA from September to Easter Vigil.

God doesn’t convert Everyone to the Catholic Church on that time frame nor does everyone have the same need for elemental catechesis.

God didn’t convert St. Paul that way! God didn’t convert the people at Pentecost that way!

And I would maintain that the Catholic Church never has taught or required that all converts be treated with a “One size fits all approach”.

I do think though that that is sometimes what happens and that there are people who slip into Satan’s grasp because they aren’t adequately shepered through the period between when they might be convinced or converted to the faith in the Catholic Church and the time when they formally join the Catholic Church.

I gurantee you that if you asked Pope Benedict if it was imperative that people be Shepered through that time interval that he would say emphatically Yes!

So don’t get me wrong–I’m not saying that the Catholic Church needs to look at converts or the way they enter the Catholic Church in the same way that a Billy Graham crusade would.

But I am saying that Evangelism isn’t a dirty word–it’s a Catholic word!

Conversion is a Catholic word!

And experiencing either of these things is not bad–it is as thoroughly Catholic as it was in Acts!

And to be sure we should never seek “Experiences with the Lord” but we should also never castigate anyone who does “experience the Lord” when that is what the Lord wants!

As long as Catholic preach the Gospel people will be converted.

If we worry as much about their salvation in the time interval between when they are convinced or converted to belief in the Catholic Church and when they formally join the Catholic Church–

as we do about the time interval between the birth of infants and the time when they are first Baptized into the Catholic Faith then we will be on the right road to sheperding those people like Jesus would!

 

[Keikiolu]

I think it is Satanic to suggest to anyone that they join the Masons!

I also think it is Satanic to suggest that I think the Catholic Church is a “social club”

OR

that it is “slobbering for new members so as to drive up revenues”.

Where have I ever said anything to suggest that I’m a "Liturgy addict fanbois or that I’m “looking for the next cool religious experience”?

Nowhere that I know of. Would you agree that being “those things” would probably be a not-great thing? That was my point.

I’m not looking for the next cool religious experience but I do think that the people who heard Peter preach at Pentecost did receive a Profound religious experience.

No one is going to argue with that.

If the Holy Spirit wanted that experience for them to also be “cool” it wouldn’t bother me in the least–I guess it would bother some people.

The only bad part about a “cool experience” would be if someone DEMANDED that they get such an experience to be converted.

And who is against catechesis and yes everyone should know as much as possible about the faith–the last time I checked however the Catholic Church doesn’t require everyone who joins it to be a theologian.

Look there’s no law against a Catholic parrish having more than one RCIA class a year and there’s also no law against the Catholic Church receiving members into it who do have a basic knowledge of the Catholic faith without alot of additional catechesis.

There IS only one Easter, though, and that is “the best” time for adult baptism.

Once again, an “instant convert” (much like myself, actually) who decide in a moment that they “are Catholic” is perfectly free to act like a full Catholic, under the conditions of their present status, which is “not yet able to take the eucharist”.

Just as someone who is working toward becoming a Priest needs to go through a training process, so does the catechumen.

While RCIA is undoubtedly good for everyone–some people have learned much about the Catholic faith and actually know much more about it than the good people who are teaching RCIA!

That’s not a knock against the RCIA instructors–that’s just saying that some people already know the Catholic faith and could have had a conversion experience.

“Conversion experience” isn’t what anyone should seek or what should constitute entry into the Catholic Church–all I’m saying is that it is not a Dirty word.

God does convert people to the Catholic faith and sometimes the major part of that can be a singular event that a person experiences. There’s nothing wrong with that!

ONLY God converts people, so your assumption that anyone BUT God “converts” people is essentially in error.

Once one is truly converted, by God, they are members of the Church, by desire, and then have some work to do to get beyond their status of catechumen.

No one goes directly from buddhist to Bishop, due to an act of “conversion”. There’s a progression.

And just because that happens doesn’t mean that a person doesn’t become converted more and more to God and the Catholic faith over their entire lifetime.

Nor does it mean that they shouldn’t undergo catechesis and never stop learning about the Catholic faith.

What I’m really getting at is that Catholic parrishes shouldn’t treat every “Convert” to the Catholic faith with a “One size fits all” approach of RCIA from September to Easter Vigil.

You’d probably like people to be able to “test out” of the preliminaries, but a LARGE point of “the preliminaries” is to be enculturated into a parish, into an actual community, which requires time and interpersonal effort.

I disagree that there should be an “internet certification” for inclusion into the Church.

God doesn’t convert Everyone to the Catholic Church on that time frame nor does everyone have the same need for elemental catechesis.

God didn’t convert St. Paul that way! God didn’t convert the people at Pentecost that way!

Once again, yet again,… one is a member of the Church, with the appropriate status of Catholic person, once one decides that they are Catholic,… but no one but the Church decides what one’s status is at ANY particular time.

…continued below →

 

[Keikiolu]

…continued from above:

And I would maintain that the Catholic Church never has taught or required that all converts be treated with a “One size fits all approach”.

You can maintain anything that you like, but the Church decides what the status of one of it’s own is, and the “convert” must be docile toward that decision.

I do think though that that is sometimes what happens and that there are people who slip into Satan’s grasp because they aren’t adequately shepered through the period between when they might be convinced or converted to the faith in the Catholic Church and the time when they formally join the Catholic Church.

No doubt. And there were Popes who made serious boo-boo’s. The point is that people SHOULD be shepherded well, and people SHOULD submit to their Church-given status and be happy with it.

I gurantee you that if you asked Pope Benedict if it was imperative that people be Shepered through that time interval that he would say emphatically Yes!

So don’t get me wrong–I’m not saying that the Catholic Church needs to look at converts or the way they enter the Catholic Church in the same way that a Billy Graham crusade would.

But I am saying that Evangelism isn’t a dirty word–it’s a Catholic word!

Conversion is a Catholic word!

And experiencing either of these things is not bad–it is as thoroughly Catholic as it was in Acts!

Hear hear…!

And to be sure we should never seek “Experiences with the Lord” but we should also never castigate anyone who does “experience the Lord” when that is what the Lord wants!

As long as Catholic preach the Gospel people will be converted.

If we worry as much about their salvation in the time interval between when they are convinced or converted to belief in the Catholic Church and when they formally join the Catholic Church–

as we do about the time interval between the birth of infants and the time when they are first Baptized into the Catholic Faith then we will be on the right road to sheperding those people like Jesus would!

Amen to that…!

Not informing converts that they ARE members of the body, from the point when they “decide they are Catholic” is a terrible shame.

Leaving them with the impression that they are “lesser” for not being allowed the Host, due to their appropriate status, is a shame.

New converts should be SUPREMELY happy that they are Catholics by desire, and that they have a lifetime of growth in their faith, with the excitement of the first steps (time and effort consuming ones) of initiation being a great gift of the newly converted.

New converts should NEVER be allowed to feel in any way frustrated,… only anticipatorialy GIDDY with the prospect of the next step.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I have been told that some Catholic parrishes do accept adult converts to the faith at times of the year in addition to the Easter vigil. Is this true?

P.S. Back in the 80s when I was still Protestant and in the Army at Schofield Barracks the battalion I was in had a couples retreat at a nunnery.

That was the first time I saw the interaction between our Catholic Chaplain and nuns and the first time I had ever seen a statue of the Virgin Mary in a church.

I didn’t convert at that time but the seeds were sown.

Conversion is indeed multifaceted and can happen in many different ways. I guess if all of us lay Catholics spread the gospel by our words and the way we live them the Church in its wisdom will know exactly how to reap the harvest!

 

[KarenElissa]

I have been told that some Catholic parrishes do accept adult converts to the faith at times of the year in addition to the Easter vigil. Is this true?

As I understand it, for those who are not baptized, Easter Vigil is pretty much it, unless there is worry that one might die before then or something like that.

For people who have been baptized, there are more options. Many times it is Easter Vigil still, sometimes Pentecost, or another day. I think my parish will also have confirmation/First Communion right before Advent starts in November.

 

[averheyen]

As I understand it, for those who are not baptized, Easter Vigil is pretty much it, unless there is worry that one might die before then or something like that.

For people who have been baptized, there are more options. Many times it is Easter Vigil still, sometimes Pentecost, or another day. I think my parish will also have confirmation/First Communion right before Advent starts in November.

Ok, so what happens if someone decides to be a Catholic, i.e. they have made the decision to convert, they’re going through the RCIA class, but they, for whatever reason, die before their baptism at the Easter Vigil? Do they still have a chance of going to heaven, or is that REALLY an arbitrary question to be asking?

 

[KarenElissa]

Ok, so what happens if someone decides to be a Catholic, i.e. they have made the decision to convert, they’re going through the RCIA class, but they, for whatever reason, die before their baptism at the Easter Vigil? Do they still have a chance of going to heaven, or is that REALLY an arbitrary question to be asking?

From the CCC #1259:

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

 

[averheyen]

From the CCC #1259:

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

God I love being Catholic!

 

[KarenElissa]

God I love being Catholic!

 

[cranster]

I can say for myself that being a cradle Catholic I did have that moment. My parents had a conversion experience through the charismatic renewal. They made me go to Mass every Sunday, and dragged me to prayer meetings, and other functions, and I hated it. One day when I was laying in bed and very frustrated Jesus suddenly stood at the foot of my bed and asked me, “Will you let me love you” I said, “Yes” what followed was a bliss beyond words… Peace, Joy, and Love that were indescribable which could only manifest itself in 30 minutes of gutteral sobbing. I strayed some time after that, but I now know that it was the faith and example of my parents that brought me back. I am Catholic to the core.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenElissa forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*As I understand it, for those who are not baptized, Easter Vigil is pretty much it, unless there is worry that one might die before then or something like that.

For people who have been baptized, there are more options. Many times it is Easter Vigil still, sometimes Pentecost, or another day. I think my parish will also have confirmation/First Communion right before Advent starts in November.*

Ok, so what happens if someone decides to be a Catholic, i.e. they have made the decision to convert, they’re going through the RCIA class, but they, for whatever reason, die before their baptism at the Easter Vigil? Do they still have a chance of going to heaven, or is that REALLY an arbitrary question to be asking?

You do realize that anyone can baptise anyone by saying the formulation and doing the required actions, right?

THIS SHOULDN’T BE DONE, of course, but as long as “the ritual” is performed, it’s valid.

As for “deciding to become Catholic”, once one REALLY decides that (internally with actual commitment), one IS a Catholic, though only able to be involved in the sacraments appropriate to this “by desire” status.

This is why, if someone is interested in becoming Catholic, or has (internally) converted to Catholicism, they NEED to talk to someone in authority within the Church, whom would naturally be A PRIEST…!!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Catholics everywhere that spread the gospel should always tell people to run to the nearest priest!

 

[averheyen]

Catholics everywhere that spread the gospel should always tell people to run to the nearest priest!

I’m confused by this statement, please explain with a valid arguement.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Evryone who hears the gospel and believes it will obey Christ and His church and receive the sacraments.

The person that is the Catholic church’s representative and can bring them the sacraments is a priest.

Priests bring Jesus to the people in a special way through the sacraments which is exactly what jesus wants them to do.

Priests do this–no one else can!