Some questions about Nietzsche

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I’m about to check out some books on Nietzsche and his philosophy. I know that he’s the guy who said “God is dead.” But it seems in this forum there are many people (I don’t know if they are catholics or not) like his philosophy. Is his philosophy atheist or contradictory to Catholicism? Please don’t mock me because I am still a beginner in philosophy.
 
Please don’t mock me because I am still a beginner in philosophy.
Anyone who doesn’t always consider themselves a “beginner in philosophy” will understand nothing. You’re on the right track.
 
Nietzsche is a difficult thinker to read without some background in the history of philosophy. Take a look at Karl Lowith’s classic From Hegel to Nietzsche. I suggest you begin your study of the texts with The Use and Abuse of History and then take a look at** Beyond Good and Evil**. And, of course, you will have to confront Thus Spake Zarathrustra. When you get to this take a look at Stanley Rosen’s **The Mask of Enlightenment: Nietzsche’s Zarathustra. ** Finally, a very good intellectual biography is Nietzsche by Rudiger Sarfanski. Good Luck!

By the way, it is fair to say that Nietzsche is among the greatest and most profound athiests and that the goal of his writings is to destroy the morality of Christianity which he sees as destructive of good political health. He once said “Christianity is Platonism for the masses.”
 
By the way, it is fair to say that Nietzsche is among the greatest and most profound athiests and that the goal of his writings is to destroy the morality of Christianity which he sees as destructive of good political health. He once said “Christianity is Platonism for the masses.”
Then why do many members in this forum still adore him?
 
Yes, Nietzsche was an atheist, and yes, his philosophy is contradictory to Christian philosophy in many respects; however, don’t take that to mean that it’s utterly without value to Christians. There’s a great deal you can learn from him, and it’s not just ‘know thy enemy’.

As I mentioned in the other thread going on, ‘God is dead’ is only half of the most-misquoted component of Nietzsche’s philosophy. And it’s the less important half. The bit immediately following is ‘and we have killed him’. God is not dead because he is impossible, God is dead because humanity has decided it has no need of gods anymore – whether that’s a good thing or not, Nietzsche does not say; and indeed he offers a lot on the side of ‘even if I’m right, we screwed up there’. Recall that Marx infamously said that religion is the opiate of the masses: that isn’t necessarily a bad thing from a purely pragmatic point of view – it keeps the masses content and controlled! The absence of gods or religion is a hole which isn’t going to be easy to fill.

The thought is revisited in the fourth part of Also Sprach Zarathustra, in which the prophet dines with a rather motley bunch while he waits for the overman. One of this group is the ugliest man in the world, who killed God because he could not bear the thought of the divinity seeing him. But the man who killed God is not presented as a hero or anything worthy of emulation: he is the embodiment of the tragic and pathetic – so hideous and convinced of his worthlessness that he would commit deicide so that none could see him for what he thinks he truly is.

With the death of God, much of the point of Nietzsche’s philosophy is the human striving for transcendence. There are some very big shoes to fill, as I said in the other thread; and Nietzsche’s idea is that without gods or demons to turn to as scapegoats, we have to take on the responsibility for our actions ourselves. It’s actually not too far off from the Christian sentiment of ‘faith without works is dead’, except that that faith is not in the divine but in humanity.

As to why he’s liked or at least respected, Nietzsche was an absolutely brilliant thinker and writer. That doesn’t mean he was always right or that his fans agree with him on every point. My own point of view is probably closer to his than that of most people here, and even I think he dropped the ball on ethics. But then, nobody’s perfect.
 
With the death of God, much of the point of Nietzsche’s philosophy is the human striving for transcendence.
He’s right on the money with that.

A lot of people seem to think Nietzsche was some sort of Secular Humanist champion or portray him as such when he stated that “God is Dead.”

In truth, he was expressing a kind of agitation. Its not necessarily perceived as a good thing that man “killed” God or the notion of it.

It does open up a number of possibilities and a degree of freedom, but the trade-off is that you lose the “road map” that people have been following.

Furthermore in his “Twilight of the Idols” he kind of pokes fun at the new idols that would come in to replace God: Art, Science, Political ideology, etc.
 
Then why do many members in this forum still adore him?
Beats me. I doubt that many CAFers “adore him.” N. is a source of great insight into the soul, morality, politics and philosophy. I have learned a lot from thinkers I don’t agree with at all. Nietzsche is among them.
 
I’m about to check out some books on Nietzsche and his philosophy
Be prepared for a laugh. Not that Nietzsche had a sense of humor, although he did sneer a lot. No, I refer to the hilarious vision Nietzsche had of himself as the super man, so high above the common drudges that are the rest of humanity. It’s a case of self adoration so undeserved that it deserves a laugh. So I can never recall Nietzsche without smiling. But then I recall how his writings have harmed thousands and thousands of people and I stop smiling.

I actually know someone whose life was twisted and harmed by Nietzsche’s ugly philosophy.
Then why do many members in this forum still adore him?
Let me guess. They’re not Catholics?

May God grant you all light and love, Annem
 
Be prepared for a laugh. Not that Nietzsche had a sense of humor, although he did sneer a lot. No, I refer to the hilarious vision Nietzsche had of himself as the super man, so high above the common drudges that are the rest of humanity. It’s a case of self adoration so undeserved that it deserves a laugh. So I can never recall Nietzsche without smiling. But then I recall how his writings have harmed thousands and thousands of people and I stop smiling.
Nietzsche did not think of himself as the overman – the ‘Nietzsche’ character is Zarathustra, who is entirely human but announces the arrival of the overman.
 
Nietzsche did not think of himself as the overman – the ‘Nietzsche’ character is Zarathustra, who is entirely human but announces the arrival of the overman.
Oh come, come. Of course he thought he was the super man.

Here’s a much more interesting question: which man eventually did the least damage to the 20th century–Freud, Marx, or Nietzsche?

May God grant you graces and light, Annem
 
Yes, Nietzsche was an atheist, and yes, his philosophy is contradictory to Christian philosophy in many respects; however, don’t take that to mean that it’s utterly without value to Christians. There’s a great deal you can learn from him, and it’s not just ‘know thy enemy’.

As I mentioned in the other thread going on, ‘God is dead’ is only half of the most-misquoted component of Nietzsche’s philosophy. And it’s the less important half. The bit immediately following is ‘and we have killed him’. God is not dead because he is impossible, God is dead because humanity has decided it has no need of gods anymore – whether that’s a good thing or not, Nietzsche does not say; and indeed he offers a lot on the side of ‘even if I’m right, we screwed up there’. Recall that Marx infamously said that religion is the opiate of the masses: that isn’t necessarily a bad thing from a purely pragmatic point of view – it keeps the masses content and controlled! The absence of gods or religion is a hole which isn’t going to be easy to fill.

The thought is revisited in the fourth part of Also Sprach Zarathustra, in which the prophet dines with a rather motley bunch while he waits for the overman. One of this group is the ugliest man in the world, who killed God because he could not bear the thought of the divinity seeing him. But the man who killed God is not presented as a hero or anything worthy of emulation: he is the embodiment of the tragic and pathetic – so hideous and convinced of his worthlessness that he would commit deicide so that none could see him for what he thinks he truly is.

With the death of God, much of the point of Nietzsche’s philosophy is the human striving for transcendence. There are some very big shoes to fill, as I said in the other thread; and Nietzsche’s idea is that without gods or demons to turn to as scapegoats, we have to take on the responsibility for our actions ourselves. It’s actually not too far off from the Christian sentiment of ‘faith without works is dead’, except that that faith is not in the divine but in humanity.

As to why he’s liked or at least respected, Nietzsche was an absolutely brilliant thinker and writer. That doesn’t mean he was always right or that his fans agree with him on every point. My own point of view is probably closer to his than that of most people here, and even I think he dropped the ball on ethics. But then, nobody’s perfect.
Nice “Reader’s Digest” on Nietzsche! Nietzsche doesn’t espouse a philosophical “system” and it is therefore difficult get a firm grasp on his thought. Largely inspired by the Greeks, Nietzsche’s undermining of conventional morality and the resulting relativism is what hacks off christians.
 
Show me where he says that.
I recall a number of places in which Nietzsche describes himself not as an overman, but as a decadent and a convalescent. He never once says that he is the overman.

The “overman” is an ideal towards which man should strive – someone capable of overcoming himself, mastering his impulses and directing them towards creation that transcends the self.
 
Be prepared for a laugh. Not that Nietzsche had a sense of humor, although he did sneer a lot. No, I refer to the hilarious vision Nietzsche had of himself as the super man, so high above the common drudges that are the rest of humanity. It’s a case of self adoration so undeserved that it deserves a laugh. So I can never recall Nietzsche without smiling. But then I recall how his writings have harmed thousands and thousands of people and I stop smiling.

I actually know someone whose life was twisted and harmed by Nietzsche’s ugly philosophy.
I agree with some of the others who have responded to this post. Nietzsche never saw himself as a superman. Much like his contemporary Kierkegaard – who came to very different conclusions about a lot of things but was also a precursor of a kind of existentialism – he wasn’t always direct, but rather spoke indirectly through a number of different quasi-pseudonymous voices, so as to approach certain issues from as many points of view as possible.

One of Nietzsche’s reasons for doing this, I think, was to make a forceful statement about the chaos of human existence and the need to go “Beyond Good and Evil.” There is not simply one philosophical voice in society that is “good” and one that is “evil,” but a whole cacophony of voices saying different, at times contradictory, things. One of Nietzche’s biggest ideas is that with this in mind, it is so difficult to rely on logic and reason to approach “the truth.” We might experience this on CAF sometimes, for example – when our fellow Catholics who believe in the same Lord as we do nonetheless offer arguments or rationale which in our opinion range from the ignorant and uninformed to the downright crazy!

Indeed, even after proclaiming the death of God, Nietzsche went on, “And yet people still continue to believe in him. Why? Because they still believe in grammar.” That is, people still believe you can articulate something clearly and properly and everyone will automatically understand what you mean and agree with you, because people still believe that the Truth which God represents is unified and attainable by human reason. I think I’d say, then, that Reason is a bigger “Catholic” target for Nietzsche than God Himself.

Of course, Nietzsche also targets the “herd mentality” he sees in most Christian churches. If there is a part of him that admires the “super-human” mentality, it is the part that wants us to think for ourselves and assert the value of our own humanity rather than accept conventional pieties and put our own opinions to rest. “I love mankind,” proclaims Zarathustra – he is not a nihilist.

From this point of view it is interesting that when Nietzsche experienced his mental breakdown in Turn just after Christmas in 1898, he ran outside into the rain, where he saw a carriage-driver savagely beating his horse. Nietzsche threw himself over the horse’s body and allowed himself to be whipped in turn. Such a Christlike gesture! It is true that certain things in his worldview drove him crazy – and I think even those of us who admire Nietzsche need to admit that many people, like Annem’s friend, have also been led to suffer very greatly by some of the irresponsible things Nietzsche said about his glimpse into the heart of darkness. (Although honestly, I know some people who have literally been driven crazy by certain aspects of Catholicism too…we need to be so careful in our pursuit of truth, which can grow so intense as to overwhelm us.)

But I am touched by the fact that for all his challenges to Christian humility and piety, Nietzche was still sufficiently moved by a love of life and even a love of LOVE to end his career as a public intellectual with this beautiful, tragic gesture of demeaning himself to protect a horse.

Peace,
+AMDG+
 
Then why do many members in this forum still adore him?
From Wikipedia: “His arguments often employed ad-hominem attacks and emotional appeals, and, particularly in his aphoristic works, he often jumps from one grand assertion to another (leaping from mountain-top to mountain-top, as he describes it), with little sustained logical support or elucidation of the connection between his ideas.”

Maybe because birds of a feather flock together?
 
From Wikipedia: “His arguments often employed ad-hominem attacks and emotional appeals, and, particularly in his aphoristic works, he often jumps from one grand assertion to another (leaping from mountain-top to mountain-top, as he describes it), with little sustained logical support or elucidation of the connection between his ideas.”

Maybe because birds of a feather flock together?
hahaha…wow…that was perfect…
 
Nietzsche is notoriously unsystematic, which can make reading him difficult. I would recommend Genealogy of Morals as I think that captures his ethical stance the best. Also, you might want to read Heideggar’s (sp) lectures on him as well as Deleuze’s book Nietzsche and Philosophy. Those two books help to give a general overview of his thought.

His writing is filled with rhetorical flourishes and really is beautiful at times, which led some to count him more a poet than a philosopher. I don’t think his importance as a philosopher can be looked over any longer, and if you want to see his importance I would recommend reading Alasdair MacIntyre’s *After Virtue, *which shows how our modern culture, as far as its morality is concerned, is essentially Nietzchean (and Weberian). MacIntyre considers Nietzsche’s philosophy as the only one, post Enlightenment, that can rival the Aristotelian tradition; although virtue theory is ultimately vindicated against even the great Nietzsche. MacIntyre points out that Nietzsche correctly perceived the “failure of the Enlightenment project’s” attempt at rational justification for morality, and so his negative critique is really something to be marvelled at. Where Nietzsche fails is in his positive arguments (i.e. that morality is radically individualist and the moral man is the one who can successfully invent and enforce his own will on others.)

One other cogent point about Nietzsche is that he has been called an “inverted Platonist” (a term which I think he gave himself), but this is a great way to understand his philosophy (if you are familiar with Plato.) Plato held that there were eternal subsisting Forms that were the exemplars of all that exists in material reality. If you turn that idea inside out, you come to Nietzsche’s philosophy. Nietzsche’s metaphysics (though he would probably cringe at me calling it ‘metaphysics’) is essentially that all is a becoming or happening. All things come about haphazardly by chance. At one point in the Genealogy of Morals he goes so far as to say there is no substance underlying anything in experience, but merely, from moment to moment, a more powerful force overcoming a weaker force in the eternal becoming. (To my mind, this is laughable as experientially, if this were true, it is conceivable that raindrops would turn into birds, or crazy things like this would happen all the time, as there would be no causal link from moment to moment.) Essentially, time is infinite, material forces are finite, and therefore, as time marches on those material forces eternally come together repeating the same process over and over, but all by chance.

Also, those who are stating that Nietzsche was not an atheist, I’d like to know what would lead you to believe that he was not. All I’ve ever read has suggested that he was. I don’t know that he was happy about being an atheist, but as he would say he had the courage of his convictions. If he was not atheist, he most certainly was anti-Christian as his broken friendship with Wagner, as well as his contempt of socialism would show. Furthermore, his contempt for the “priestly caste” (read Jews and Christians) suggests to me that he had a profound disgust with any kind of religiosity, as it allowed the ‘slaves’ to rule the ‘masters.’ The Cross was, for Nietzsche, a constant temtpation for the weak to rule the strong – the idea of a God on a cross was the epitome of slave morality in Nietzsche’s mind.

Anyway, I would be careful reading Nietzsche, and would suggest always having St. Thomas’ texts at hand (if you read latin his whole corpus is online) as he has cogent replies to pretty much anything Nietzsche argued for. Personally, Nietzsche shook my religious convictions to the core, but good ol’ brother Thomas (and certainly grace) kept the foundation strong. After all, as Pope Leo XIII said, Aquinas wrote in such a principled way that he successfully refuted any error that had come before him, or could come after him (cf. Aeterne Patris).
 
Nietzsche is notoriously unsystematic, which can make reading him difficult. I would recommend Genealogy of Morals as I think that captures his ethical stance the best. Also, you might want to read Heideggar’s (sp) lectures on him as well as Deleuze’s book Nietzsche and Philosophy. Those two books help to give a general overview of his thought.

His writing is filled with rhetorical flourishes and really is beautiful at times, which led some to count him more a poet than a philosopher. I don’t think his importance as a philosopher can be looked over any longer, and if you want to see his importance I would recommend reading Alasdair MacIntyre’s *After Virtue, *which shows how our modern culture, as far as its morality is concerned, is essentially Nietzchean (and Weberian). MacIntyre considers Nietzsche’s philosophy as the only one, post Enlightenment, that can rival the Aristotelian tradition; although virtue theory is ultimately vindicated against even the great Nietzsche. MacIntyre points out that Nietzsche correctly perceived the “failure of the Enlightenment project’s” attempt at rational justification for morality, and so his negative critique is really something to be marvelled at. Where Nietzsche fails is in his positive arguments (i.e. that morality is radically individualist and the moral man is the one who can successfully invent and enforce his own will on others.)

One other cogent point about Nietzsche is that he has been called an “inverted Platonist” (a term which I think he gave himself), but this is a great way to understand his philosophy (if you are familiar with Plato.) Plato held that there were eternal subsisting Forms that were the exemplars of all that exists in material reality. If you turn that idea inside out, you come to Nietzsche’s philosophy. Nietzsche’s metaphysics (though he would probably cringe at me calling it ‘metaphysics’) is essentially that all is a becoming or happening. All things come about haphazardly by chance. At one point in the Genealogy of Morals he goes so far as to say there is no substance underlying anything in experience, but merely, from moment to moment, a more powerful force overcoming a weaker force in the eternal becoming. (To my mind, this is laughable as experientially, if this were true, it is conceivable that raindrops would turn into birds, or crazy things like this would happen all the time, as there would be no causal link from moment to moment.) Essentially, time is infinite, material forces are finite, and therefore, as time marches on those material forces eternally come together repeating the same process over and over, but all by chance.

Also, those who are stating that Nietzsche was not an atheist, I’d like to know what would lead you to believe that he was not. All I’ve ever read has suggested that he was. I don’t know that he was happy about being an atheist, but as he would say he had the courage of his convictions. If he was not atheist, he most certainly was anti-Christian as his broken friendship with Wagner, as well as his contempt of socialism would show. Furthermore, his contempt for the “priestly caste” (read Jews and Christians) suggests to me that he had a profound disgust with any kind of religiosity, as it allowed the ‘slaves’ to rule the ‘masters.’ The Cross was, for Nietzsche, a constant temtpation for the weak to rule the strong – the idea of a God on a cross was the epitome of slave morality in Nietzsche’s mind.

Anyway, I would be careful reading Nietzsche, and would suggest always having St. Thomas’ texts at hand (if you read latin his whole corpus is online) as he has cogent replies to pretty much anything Nietzsche argued for. Personally, Nietzsche shook my religious convictions to the core, but good ol’ brother Thomas (and certainly grace) kept the foundation strong. After all, as Pope Leo XIII said, Aquinas wrote in such a principled way that he successfully refuted any error that had come before him, or could come after him (cf. Aeterne Patris).
From someone on the other side, :clapping: !!!

I don’t know about keeping Aquinas handy – it always seemed to me that Nietzsche had more to say on the function of religion than on the truth of religion, which was more the Angelic Doctor’s preferred domain. Perhaps the faithful might do better to carry the Gospels and Acts of the apostles into battle than a mere philosophical/theological text; when Nietzsche takes aim at religion, he is not shooting for proofs.

(Also, I read Nietzsche and Aquinas at about the same time, and look where I ended up! 😉 )

But in any case, thank you for this wonderful and well-thought-out take on one of my favorite philosophers! Beyond what I’ve already gone into, I would disagree that raindrops could turn into birds if Nietzsche’s ‘metaphysic’ were plausible, simply on the basis that the rain could be generally a much more powerful force than the avian; I don’t remember the exact passage in the Genealogy of Morals but I will take your word for its existence.

I don’t agree with you on everything, but that post was a pleasure to read – also, it’s spelled ‘Heidegger’ 🙂
 
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