Some thoughts on Narnia - The Last Battle and Susan

[Lady_Cygnus]

Ok if you haven’t read The Last Battle don’t read further (unless you want a spoiler

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So in The Last Battle it is mentioned by Peter that Susan “is no longer a friend of Narnia,” and they go on to describe how she has become obsessed with worldly things.

Now I read somewhere (on some silly website that thought Narnia was evil) that Susan went to “Hell” because she was interested in girl things, but I don’t necessarily think that this is true.

This is the layout of the scene in their world. Peter and Edmund had dug up the rings and were waiting at the train station to hand them off to Eustance and Jill. The Professor, Aunt Polly and Lucy were with Eustance and Jill on the train, “to stay together as long as possible.” In another chapter they talk about how their parents were on the same train, on their way to Bristol.

When the train accident happened all these people died. However, Susan wasn’t there. She is still alive, so she isn’t in Hell, just still in the Shadowlands (On Earth). She is alive and her entire family is dead. I know this sounds morbid but it is often in the face of death that people turn around and see what is really important in life. I always had a hope that she did in the end.

 

[Ahimsa]

In the movie, Susan seemed sort of the intellectual sort (if I remember correctly). I would find it hard to believe she went all girly-girly on us.

 

[Lady_Cygnus]

Ahimsa:

In the movie, Susan seemed sort of the intellectual sort (if I remember correctly). I would find it hard to believe she went all girly-girly on us.

She was different in the books, intellectual yes, but in the way of trying to appear older than she was. She doesn’t so much turn girly, but gets caught up in the dressing and thinking like a woman, “lipstick and invitations” as Lewis puts it (remember he wrote these books in the 50’s )

 

[Kristina_P]

Lady Cygnus:

Ok if you haven’t read The Last Battle don’t read further (unless you want a spoiler

---

So in The Last Battle it is mentioned by Peter that Susan “is no longer a friend of Narnia,” and they go on to describe how she has become obsessed with worldly things.

Now I read somewhere (on some silly website that thought Narnia was evil) that Susan went to “Hell” because she was interested in girl things, but I don’t necessarily think that this is true.

This is the layout of the scene in their world. Peter and Edmund had dug up the rings and were waiting at the train station to hand them off to Eustance and Jill. The Professor, Aunt Polly and Lucy were with Eustance and Jill on the train, “to stay together as long as possible.” In another chapter they talk about how their parents were on the same train, on their way to Bristol.

When the train accident happened all these people died. However, Susan wasn’t there. She is still alive, so she isn’t in Hell, just still in the Shadowlands (On Earth). She is alive and her entire family is dead. I know this sounds morbid but it is often in the face of death that people turn around and see what is really important in life. I always had a hope that she did in the end.

Yeah, there’s no reason to believe that Susan is in Hell. It’s explicitly stated in the book that she wasn’t on the train.

 

[rocklobster]

I always felt that it indicated that poor Susan had lost her “childlike faith” that we all have to have in order to enter Heaven.

 

[NWUArmyROTC]

But Susan as she is now, cannot enter heaven for precisely the reason mentioned by “rock lobster.” If she was on the train she would not be with them, that is indicated by Peter. She has thrown it all away abandoning the faith for worldy things and losing that mystery and love.

 

[manualman]

I agree with the above.

Since this is a children’s book, Lewis simply didn’t have Susan die yet. Thus young children didn’t need to be confronted with the reality that one can apostosize and wind up in hell. At least not in THIS story. That’s a lesson best learned AFTER one knows the goodness and grace of our Lord. This IS an evangelistic story, after all…

Hopefully, she repents before the end of her own life. Oh wait, this is fiction!

So, who do you suppose the Calormen represent? Tash? Amazingly prophetic on Lewis’ part (the Tashlan idea). I didn’t think syncretism would have been considered a huge problem back then. Was it, or was he just foresighted?

 

[Ahimsa]

manualman:

So, who do you suppose the Calormen represent? Tash? Amazingly prophetic on Lewis’ part (the Tashlan idea). I didn’t think syncretism would have been considered a huge problem back then. Was it, or was he just foresighted?

Syncretism has always been a “problem”.

 

[manualman]

Ahimsa:

Syncretism has always been a “problem”.

Insomuch as where it exists, it is always a problem, sure. But until recently, my impression is that it hasn’t been common. Heck, until recently, excessive divisiveness was more common.

 

[Della]

But, if this part of the story is supposed to be taking place in the eternal now, poor Susan’s fate would be sealed.

Frankly, I think Lewis overstepped his bounds by condemning Susan as a young woman for nothing more than a bit of vanity. After all, that’s not a mortal sin, mostly plain silliness.

One of the problems with Lewis is that he wrote from the perspective of a Protestant not a Catholic. This sudden jarring loss of Susan’s eternal life is way out of character for her, IMHO. If he wanted to have her lose her salvation he should have made it more clear why than that she had just become more interested in clothes and boys and that sort of thing. What a prude he makes himself out to be.

No, I’ve never liked what he did to poor Susan or to the unfortunate sailor in Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Just too cold and hard-nosed when the man later regretted his decision, even if it was out of attrition more than contrition, as Lewis himself relates. Lewis just didn’t seem to understand the “mechanics of mercy” within the fullness of the truth.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

Della:

Frankly, I think Lewis overstepped his bounds by condemning Susan as a young woman for nothing more than a bit of vanity. After all, that’s not a mortal sin, mostly plain silliness.

Isn’t that how it can start though? Little white lies lead to bigger ones etc. A man viewing porn, its just a little sin, could end up having an affair (and I know someone that that did happen to), adultery, which is a mortal sin. Sin and the devil are insidious in the way they lead us to the greater sins via the “lesser” sins.

I like to think that Susan did repent after her entire family died, but she may have gone even farther away from God, “How can God let this happen” etc. There will be a separating of the sheep from the goats and the bible does say that not all will enter into God’s kingdom. I think its a good and subtle warning for kids to not lose their faith.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

Della:

One of the problems with Lewis is that he wrote from the perspective of a Protestant not a Catholic. This sudden jarring loss of Susan’s eternal life is way out of character for her, IMHO. If he wanted to have her lose her salvation he should have made it more clear why than that she had just become more interested in clothes and boys and that sort of thing. What a prude he makes himself out to be.

I have to think about the time this was being written, 1950’s?. Perhaps he forsaw (?) the sexual revoloution in the '60’s and this was a warning for girls not to get “boy crazy” and to keep in their mind what’s important. Girls on unchaperoned dates with boys in cars, can’t lead to anything wholesome can it? Didn’t that start in the '50’s?

I think the “why” is because its enticing, everyone else is doing it, its the fashion, you don’t want to be looked at as different etc. Very subtle but effective.

 

[Kristina_P]

Della:

But, if this part of the story is supposed to be taking place in the eternal now, poor Susan’s fate would be sealed.

Frankly, I think Lewis overstepped his bounds by condemning Susan as a young woman for nothing more than a bit of vanity. After all, that’s not a mortal sin, mostly plain silliness.

One of the problems with Lewis is that he wrote from the perspective of a Protestant not a Catholic. This sudden jarring loss of Susan’s eternal life is way out of character for her, IMHO. If he wanted to have her lose her salvation he should have made it more clear why than that she had just become more interested in clothes and boys and that sort of thing. What a prude he makes himself out to be.

No, I’ve never liked what he did to poor Susan or to the unfortunate sailor in Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Just too cold and hard-nosed when the man later regretted his decision, even if it was out of attrition more than contrition, as Lewis himself relates. Lewis just didn’t seem to understand the “mechanics of mercy” within the fullness of the truth.

Susan could repent later in life and end up in Heaven. The vision of the Narnia Heaven we get in The Last Battle is not meant to be a vision of all of Heaven, in my opinion. I don’t really think Lewis is implying that Susan lost her salvation at all, just that she lost the good things of childhood. (The fact that she willfully denies the truth is a strike against her, though, more than the fact that she likes lipstick and boys. Also, if she loved Jesus, then wouldn’t she still love Aslan?)

I don’t really remember the incident from the The Dawn Treader that you’re relating, but I don’t remember being particularly troubled by anything in that book.

 

[Reepicheep]

I see no reason to suppose that Lewis meant his readers to think Susan had lost her salvation.

She had lost Narnia, lost the wonder of her time in Narnia. But as Aslan told (I think it was) Eustace and Jill, he exists in our world too, just under another anme. Susan lost something of great value…but there’s no reason to think she lost her soul.

 

[TheRaiders]

You all are bringing up some memories from fifth grade when I read these books. I think I was deeply touched by what happened to Suzan. I need to re-read these books over Christmas. Lewis’ imagination was amazing and Christian. Lewis was a pioneer, in that he tried to represent the whole meaning of life, and redemption in a fantasy novel. His job was much tougher than Tolkein, who merely hinted at Christian meaning. God’s plan is very hard to understand. It is a matter of faith in…what. That was what Lewis answered for our imaginations “What is God”, what does He stand for and why is it a struggle to choose him. What kind of people choose Him? It is so complex an answer that I wouldn’t be surprised if Lewis didn’t get it all right. But man did he try.
I plan on writing a book that carries Lewis torch further, and is even more blatantly Christian. I have an idea for my world’s setting that is as Catholic as it gets. Can anyone guess where that is?

 

[puzzleannie]

Reepicheep:

I see no reason to suppose that Lewis meant his readers to think Susan had lost her salvation.

.

As Aslan would say, that is someone else’s story, and we don’t need to know their story.

 

[JCPhoenix]

Here’s my take on Susan:

She was always the one prone to disbelief, even when she knew better…she was the intellectual.

Also remember that Susan, Lucy, Peter, and Edmund had a cutoff point from Narnia, because they were getting “too old”. I think this relates to what happened to Susan, but I haven’t entirely figured it out yet.

The reality was that Susan grew up, and in doing so, she lost her childlike innocence. This led her away from her fold, and so she was still in the world when her family was called from it.

I do not see how, in any way, this would mean that she lost her salvation…rather, she was called to a different ending than the others. Their journey and travels ended, and Susan’s went on. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think this is meant by CS Lewis to remind us to maintain our childlike faith, to remember blessed experiences and not to give in to doubt…for when we give in to doubt and to the things of the world, we are led away from those who are most important to us.

CS Lewis pulled a fast one here…rather than removing her from the family, he took the family away from her. Very clever.

What he was doing was encouraging us to gather together to keep the faith alive.

I love his version of heaven by the way…I recently re-read this book, and it actually made me long to die so that I could be with God for eternity, not just a few blessed experiences now and then…but forever. Please don’t take this to mean I want life to end…rather, it’s an affirmation in the belief and understanding that I (we all) are not home yet.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

I have all the book in one set and I’m half-way through Prince Caspian. (I like spoliers)

And… it’s sad. Susan is my favorite character (Tie between her and Peter) and I can’t see her dolling up and because of that loosing Narnia.

Ah well, I’ll read on and see how it all plays out.

As for her loosing her salvation, I don’t think so. Hopefully she finds her innocents again. Maybe in the deaths of her family, she’ll revert back to the girl that cried for Aslan.

Once a Queen in Narnia, always a Queen in Narnia.

 

[Lady_Cygnus]

puzzleannie:

As Aslan would say, that is someone else’s story, and we don’t need to know their story.

sigh, yea I know, but I can’t help but wonder

JCPhoenix:

I love his version of heaven by the way…I recently re-read this book, and it actually made me long to die so that I could be with God for eternity, not just a few blessed experiences now and then…but forever. Please don’t take this to mean I want life to end…rather, it’s an affirmation in the belief and understanding that I (we all) are not home yet.

I know exactly what you mean! When Jewel suddenly realizes that they are “home” and that they loved Narnia because it was a shadow of their real home…I get all sorts of happy fuzzies. Sigh, I can’t wait to go home .

Whenever I start getting depressed or caught up in this world I try to read these books (or others on a similiar note - like The Great Divorce and Heaven?). Little reminders of what we are actually working towards