Someone asked me why we Christianized pagan structures in light of a scriptural passage. I don't know the answer?

[foolishmortal]

I have a question you might be able to answer. Why do we

Catholics take pagan temples, even the Egyptian obelisk in

St. Peter’s square, and Christianize them? Isn’t this against

the biblical injunction to tear such things down and replace

them? Where in the bible is there any precedent for this?

 

[gjbrunning]

Are we not supposed to evangelize, i.e. Christianize, pagans? Wouldn’t it make sense to also “christianize” their buildings, symbols etc? turn them from their former pagan use to a Christian use? The Masonic consitory in Buffalo was converted 60 some years ago into a Jesuit high school. Bravo!

A question more to the point, I think, is how we allow our Catholic churches to be turned into condominiums (as in Boston and other places), cultural centers (as in Buffalo), Protestant churches, restaurants and who knows what else?

 

[zach_dunn]

I have a question you might be able to answer. Why do we

Catholics take pagan temples, even the Egyptian obelisk in

St. Peter’s square, and Christianize them? Isn’t this against

the biblical injunction to tear such things down and replace

them? Where in the bible is there any precedent for this?

Catholic Church teaches that there are varying degrees of truth in all religions. Why not take the truth out of other religions and use them to express Christian Truth? One example people like to use against us is the Christmas tree. The Christmas tree originated with pagans, but the Church saw it as a symbol of eternal life. The tree has life in the dead of winter, just as Christ brought life to the deadness of humanity. The tree is a neutral object, it’s not pagan and it’s not Christian. It’s part of God’s creation and is “good.” Many people that accuse the Church of bringing paganism into the Church don’t even realize that the wedding rings they use at their weddings have pagan origin.

What it really comes down to is their complete unwillingness to accept the Catholic faith, so they cling to anything that will make it seem like the Church is pagan or evil.

Are we not supposed to evangelize, i.e. Christianize, pagans? Wouldn’t it make sense to also “christianize” their buildings, symbols etc? turn them from their former pagan use to a Christian use? The Masonic consitory in Buffalo was converted 60 some years ago into a Jesuit high school. Bravo!

A question more to the point, I think, is how we allow our Catholic churches to be turned into condominiums (as in Boston and other places), cultural centers (as in Buffalo), Protestant churches, restaurants and who knows what else?

I know what you mean, we had a very nice old Church that we used to go to that celebrated the old Tridentine Mass, but it was torn down and turned into a Wal Mart…

 

[juliamajor]

I have a question you might be able to answer. Why do we

Catholics take pagan temples, even the Egyptian obelisk in

St. Peter’s square, and Christianize them? Isn’t this against

the biblical injunction to tear such things down and replace

them? Where in the bible is there any precedent for this?

There are many traditions , shrines, places of worship that started as pagan(passover and Feast of unleavened bread )are based on agricultural feasts of the very ancient near east. Shrines and places of worship were either co-used by believers in YHWH or taken over by them (Bethel comes to mind) before the institution of the temple in Jerusalem the worship of YhWH much more free and easy and less structured. Taking over of a sacred space by another belief system is very ancient.It was practiced in the OT continued into the post biblical age.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There are many traditions , shrines, places of worship that started as pagan(passover and Feast of unleavened bread )are based on agricultural feasts of the very ancient near east. Shrines and places of worship were either co-used by believers in YHWH or taken over by them (Bethel comes to mind) before the institution of the temple in Jerusalem the worship of YhWH much more free and easy and less structured. Taking over of a sacred space by another belief system is very ancient.It was practiced in the OT continued into the post biblical age.

No-one ever defines what they mean by “pagan”. Before the Incarnation, everything outside Judaism was “pagan” is some sense. Josiah of Judah would not have approved of the religion of Abraham, with its sacred oak.​

 

[juliamajor]

I bow to your insight O Gottled one!

 

[Mintaka]

The classic – and by that, I mean “early, early Christian” – argument for using stuff and ideas from pagan society is “the spoils of the Egyptians”.

Why would a Christian learn to read and write pagan letters and style? To adorn the Lord’s dwelling place and clothe the children of Israel with the spoils of the Egyptians! Why would a Christian learn to be a doctor, even though he had to be taught by pagans? The spoils of the Egyptians! Why purify an old disused pagan temple and turn it into a church? The spoils of the Egyptians! If God gave you spoils, you weren’t supposed to just chuck them into the dumpster; and they could be made holy enough to serve even the holiest purposes.

Of course, this could be taken a little too far, as most of the ruins of Rome would eventually be disassembled in the course of spoiling the ol’ dead Roman Egyptians. On the other hand, the only reason we have the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Greek tragedies and comedies, and a zillion other things from the ancient world and any pagan culture converted by the missionaries, is the idea of the spoils of the Egyptians.

There are other, more sophisticated justifications based on various other kinds of reasoning. But the spoils of the Egyptians was the quickest Bible argument then and now.

 

[foolishmortal]

Thanks for your help, everyone!

 

[kepha1]

The obelisks of Rome are a favorite among the more vicious anti-Catholic hate sites. They even use bible verses where God commands that they all be knocked down, and since there is one in the Vatican, it must prove that the Catholic Church is pagan. There is also an Egyptian obelisks in many cities in the world, including Washington D.C.
The following is from a book written by a non-Catholic Egyptologist. Notice there is no explanation as to why this particular obelisk is the only one in the world that has no inscriptions on it, and has never been broken.

The Obelisk in the Piazza di San Pietro

The obelisks of the Piazza San Pietro, Piazza dell’ Esuilino, and the Piazza del Quirinale are all uninscribed. Their dates, provenances, and the reasons they were left uninscribed are not known…Neither Flinders Petrie, nor any other excavator working in the ruins of Heliopolis, has ever found an obelisk, or even a small fragment of an obelisk, that was uninscribed. The sovereigns of ancient Egypt were ever eager to decorate monuments with their own names and with phrases proclaiming their own glory, no matter what the size of the monument. The only undecorated obelisks in Egypt were unfinished ones abandoned in their quarries, and in fact one of these decoration was already in progress. More probably, the uninscribed obelisks were quarried in Egypt by the Roman emperors expressly to be taken to Rome, although it is possible that they were left incomplete because of the untimely death of the pharaoh.

The Obelisk in the Piazza di San Pietro is important chiefly by its surroundings… It is made of red granite and stands 25.37 meters high. It was erected in the Julian Forum in Alexandria by order of Augustus and remained their until 37 A.D. when the Emperor Caligula ordered the forum demolished and the obelisk transferred to Rome. It was then erected in the Vatican Circus, and there it remained until its removal to the square before the Basilica of St. Peter (1586). Legend* has it that in the Vatican Circus innumerable Christians, including St. Peter and that the reason this obelisk was not later overturned as were all the others in Rome was that was looked upon as the witness to the martyrdom of St. Peter.

Pope Sixtus V appointed engineer Domenico Fontana to move the obelisk from the Vatican Circus

April 28, 1586, Fontana and his men attended Mass at 2:AM, and later offered public prayers for the success of this feat.

Dedication ceremonies, Mass, and a procession with the entire papal court went to the obelisk More prayers, were offered and the obelisk was purified, and surmounted with a cross.

Former Chief Inspector of Antiquities, is an Egyptian archeologist who has published several books on Egyptology, as well as many articles in many journals.
Obelisks of the World, by Labib Habachi, Scribner’s Sons, 1974, page 74-75

I would like to add here, that on the top of this Christianized pagan symbol, is a cross. Inside this cross, is a relic of the true cross. Here we have a stone monument that stood in the presence of hundreds of the earliest Christian martyrs containing a relic of the true cross. To accuse us of paganism is the same as the Pharisees telling Jesus He heals by the power of Satan. It is an insult to the deaths of the martyrs who refused to pay homage to Roman gods. But revisionist bigots don’t want people to know this. They don’t believe we have relics of the true cross. Most Catholics don’t even know it’s in there. Contrary to anti-Catholics’ insane attempt to discredit the Catholic Church, the cross is not a pagan idol.

*Legend: the author is using the term “legend” an archaeologist and not as an early Church historian.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have a question you might be able to answer. Why do we

Catholics take pagan temples, even the Egyptian obelisk in

St. Peter’s square, and Christianize them? Isn’t this against

the biblical injunction to tear such things down and replace

them? Where in the bible is there any precedent for this?

Consider the fate of these poor pagans…

We took their lands, we took their buildings, we took their art, we took their festivals and feasts, and, above all we took their people, and we brought them under the dominion of Christ.

Isn’t that what Jesus wanted us to do (cf. Mt 28:19)? :yup:

 

[Secret_Square]

The really harsh Old Testament laws commanding the Israelites to destroy all pagan temples, take no booty, and even (in some cases) take no prisoners originated at a time when the Israelites were a very small, new, and weak nation fighting for its very survival.
They did not want to take any chances that pagan religious practices – often intertwined with loyalty to enemy kings or nations – would infiltrate or corrupt their society. Hence they were much more strict about excluding non-Jews and non-Jewish practices from their society.

Jesus and His followers, however, didn’t intend Christians to have a separate nation or society of their own with its own civil government, its own military, etc. The Christian faith is open to ALL people, and furthermore, embraces what is good in other cultures.

Since there isn’t much danger nowadays that large numbers of Christians will be won over to paganism by visiting an obelisk or an old Greek or Roman temple, seeing a statue of Buddha, putting up a Christmas tree in their home, etc. there is no need to apply the strict OT laws to Christians.

 

[inkaneer]

I have a question you might be able to answer. Why do we

Catholics take pagan temples, even the Egyptian obelisk in

St. Peter’s square, and Christianize them? Isn’t this against

the biblical injunction to tear such things down and replace

them? Where in the bible is there any precedent for this?

We also take pagans and christenize them. We baptize them imparting the blessing of Christ’s death and resurrection. Those pagan symbols are also blessed and turned into christian artifacts usually adorned with a crucifix [as with the obelisk in St. Peter’s Square]. This is a ancient tradition in the church and is meant to show the pagans that their pagan religion is powerless against christianity.