Someone said to me today

  • Thread starter Thread starter ElizabethPH
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

ElizabethPH

Guest
And how would one respond to this statement that:

“Jesus didn’t die so that we could have religion, he died so that we could have a deep intimate personal relationship with God”.?

Thanks,
Elizabeth
 
My response would be to roll my eyes and say “Whatever…”
 
ElizabethPH said:
And how would one respond to this statement that:

“Jesus didn’t die so that we could have religion, he died so that we could have a deep intimate personal relationship with God”.?

Thanks,
Elizabeth
Click to expand...
Respond by saying, “Then why did He establish the Catholic Church on St. Peter if He hated religion?”
 
And why would he have been constantly in the temple and celebrating Jewish liturgical traditions had he not had a deep affinity for religion? Why would he have fulfilled and transformed the old covenant into the new covenant, which has its own continuation of old covenant traditions transformed into the sacraments of the new covenant?
 
I agree that this is a goofy statement. Some people saying it want to reject “religion” as merely an outward set of rituals that does not correspond with a true love of the Lord. But religion is not a dirty word–it has, like dogma, become most unfairly stigmatized.

If you have time, you might ask the person what they mean by a relationship with the Lord. Surely that means devoting time to Him? Prayer, worship, communion, devoting oneself to becoming holier? If this is just a casual conversation with no time, then just say something like, “Yes, my relationship to the Lord is very important to me.”
 
Sounds a lot like that video that was popular a year or so ago “Why I hate religion but love Jesus”
 
heidi_storage said:
I agree that this is a goofy statement. Some people saying it want to reject “religion” as merely an outward set of rituals that does not correspond with a true love of the Lord. But religion is not a dirty word–it has, like dogma, become most unfairly stigmatized.

If you have time, you might ask the person what they mean by a relationship with the Lord. Surely that means devoting time to Him? Prayer, worship, communion, devoting oneself to becoming holier? If this is just a casual conversation with no time, then just say something like, “Yes, my relationship to the Lord is very important to me.”
Click to expand...
:dancing:
 
ElizabethPH said:
And how would one respond to this statement that:

“Jesus didn’t die so that we could have religion, he died so that we could have a deep intimate personal relationship with God”.?

Thanks,
Elizabeth
Click to expand...
I think I’d want to say, "If Jesus didn’t want to establish a religion, why did he go to all the trouble of asking Peter, 3 TIMES to shepherd his people? Why did Christ give Peter the ‘keys to the kingdom’ AND authority? (What you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven)? Why then did Christ say he would establish his Church on Peter, the Rock, and that even the gates of hell would not prevail against it? (Christ’s Church).

Why then did Jesus take the trouble of breathing on the apostles and saying to them to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, that the sins they forgave would be forgiven if we were going to go directly on everything, not through the Church?

Why did Christ even create the Church, then, if it wasn’t necessary?
 
ElizabethPH said:
And how would one respond to this statement that:

“Jesus didn’t die so that we could have religion, he died so that we could have a deep intimate personal relationship with God”.?

Thanks,
Elizabeth
Click to expand...
I would ask how someone without organized religion brings himself or herself closer to God. I expect responses like reading the Bible, sharing and listening with other Christian friends, prayer, etc. Then I would volunteer how organized religion serves and enhances all of those things. Organized religion offers 2,000 years of wisdom amd interpretation of scriptures and an organized community of believers who can pray and worship in solidarity with hundreds of millions of other believers, as God always intended from Abraham to Peter and beyond.

With this kind of argument, you have no need to attack what your friend already believes to be true and “prove them wrong”. And any counter-argument that he or she makes (I usually expect one on how corrupt people in the Church make the Church untrustworthy) can be easily applied to his or her own philosophy (there are misguided advisers and friends outside of organizes religion, too, frequently with no larger Church to raise the alarm if they go astray).
 
This is one of the more difficult ones for me. I’ll admit that I am often plagued with uncharitable thoughts and struggle to keep the filter in place to stop them from coming out of my mouth. I see this is as a progression that has taken years to arrive at. It started when the Church became “invisible”. Then, the Body of Christ became “an invisible body of believers”. Time passed by and eventually this body of believers was defined by nothing more than a quick “I believe in Jesus” profession without any other qualifier. This obviously then prompts the “so does Satan” response which is usually not well received, but I digress.

Of course, we have to admit that Jesus is currently invisible and inaudible to us as well. And since the body of believers and the Church is invisible too, what’s the point in hanging out with them? So what is left that is corporeally tangible? ME. Just me. Once all traces of society and community are eliminated from our personal relationship, we are left with nothing more than ego-centralism, and ultimately, self-worship. I am always tempted to ask if, within this personal relationship, if Jesus ever disagrees with anything they believe? As I said, I realize that charity is lacking in these thoughts and I’m not always good at keeping them quiet. And while this is probably the most uncomfortable statement that I hear, it seems like it’s becoming more and more prevalent with the popularity of the “I love Jesus, but hate religion” books and videos.
 
heidi_storage said:
I agree that this is a goofy statement. Some people saying it want to reject “religion” as merely an outward set of rituals that does not correspond with a true love of the Lord. But religion is not a dirty word–it has, like dogma, become most unfairly stigmatized.

If you have time, you might ask the person what they mean by a relationship with the Lord. Surely that means devoting time to Him? Prayer, worship, communion, devoting oneself to becoming holier? If this is just a casual conversation with no time, then just say something like, “Yes, my relationship to the Lord is very important to me.”
Click to expand...
Excellent reply. 👍

As said - much depends on the circumstances when the comment is made.
If time is not available - one could possibly try to arrange another time when one could delve into it further.

The basic idea behind this statement is (I think) the idea that “religion” does not save - and that one can readily see people who claim “religion” but do not have Jesus in their heart.
But of course it is a false dichotomy - one that would need to be explored carefully.

I do think that while - like most “bumper sticker” sayings - it is somewhat off base, it can be a good jumping off point for discussion - it gets one thinking.

Peace
James
 
ElizabethPH said:
And how would one respond to this statement that:

“Jesus didn’t die so that we could have religion, he died so that we could have a deep intimate personal relationship with God”.?

Thanks,
Elizabeth
Click to expand...
That it’s an excuse for someone to act selfish and disobey one of the Ten Commandments.
 
ElizabethPH said:
And how would one respond to this statement that:

“Jesus didn’t die so that we could have religion, he died so that we could have a deep intimate personal relationship with God”.?

Thanks,
Elizabeth
Click to expand...
Protestants: it’s always about me, me, me. My personal relationship with God, my spiritual path etc etc.

We Catholics put great value on the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. When we go to Confession, we not only reconcile with God but also with the Church, Christ’s Spouse.

Jesus established the Church - never once does it say in the Gospels that he wanted a ‘personal relationship’ with someone. He founded a Church ie a community. That personal relationship is formed between any member of the Church and Christ, but only if that member’s ties with the Church are strong, something that can only be when one is in a State of Grace, acquired through Confession.

Hope this makes sense.
 
SuperLuigi said:
That it’s an excuse for someone to act selfish and disobey one of the Ten Commandments.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of the pearl of “wisdom” I once heard that went “Jesus died for our sins, so if we don’t sin his death was all for nothing.”
 
JRTJ said:
Protestants: it’s always about me, me, me. My personal relationship with God, my spiritual path etc etc.

We Catholics put great value on the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. When we go to Confession, we not only reconcile with God but also with the Church, Christ’s Spouse.
Click to expand...
Whoa! Not true for many denominations and congregations. I’ve never attended a church that didn’t emphasize the importance of the church as the bride of Christ, and “personal relationship with God” was always meant to include relationship with other believers.
 
heidi_storage said:
Whoa! Not true for many denominations and congregations. I’ve never attended a church that didn’t emphasize the importance of the church as the bride of Christ, and “personal relationship with God” was always meant to include relationship with other believers.
Click to expand...
Why are you not Catholic then? The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top