Son of God

[EricFilmer]

Second, if you want to put together an argument for the trinity I would suggest not trying to tie the “I am” statement from God in Exodus with the “I am” statement of Jesus in John. The belief that they are related is a common mistake, but if you try to make this argument w/ someone who knows koine Greek, your argument will be torn apart.

Although my brother does not need me to defend his positions on CAF, I would like to go ahead and give my thoughts concerning your comments to his post.

In the original Hebrew, God actually says “I Am that I Am” (Ehyeh asher ehyeh). In the Gospel of John the Koine Greek phrase is “ego eimi.” This phrase can mean “I am he/It is I” or “I exist.” The “I am” statement in John 8:58 is either a reference to the pre-existence of Christ or it could be a claim of Messiahship as it is used later in John. When Jesus is asked by the Samaritan woman by the well if he is the messiah he responds “I am he” (ego eimi).

I don’t think you’re taking into account the Septuagint (which was the version of the OT the Jews predominantly were using at the time of Jesus). In the Septuagint translation of Exodus, the Hebrew phrase Ehyeh asher ehyeh was translated into Greek as ego eimi ho on (“I am the Being”, among other possible English translations). Ego eimi was an abbreviation of the Divine Name, which Jesus ascribed to himself (along with claiming to have the divine attribute of divine existence). This is exactly what the Pharisees in John 8 understood him to be saying, which is why they wanted to stone him for blasphemy in accordance with the Law of Moses: “He who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him; the sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.” (Leviticus 24:16, RSV). Because they considered Ego eimi to be the Divine Name, they wanted to stone Jesus for blaspheming it.

 

[pacloc]

Luke 1:43-45 is very clear that Jesus is God - The Lord. “And how have I deserved that the mother of my Lord should come to me?..And blessed is she who has believed, because the things promised her by the Lord shall be accomplished.”

If Jesus was not part of God, Luke would not have had Elizabeth call Jesus and the Father both the Lord within 2 verses of each other.

 

[TimothyH]

There are a lot of verses that can be interpreted for or against Jesus being God, but as far as I am aware, there is not one explicit and irrefutable verse that supports the diety of Christ. I thought you were saying there is, but now I’m not sure if I understood you post correctly.

Taking the verse about the temple as an example:
If you read in the Old Testament, God did not want a temple at all, but after man complained long enough God then decided to indulge their wishes. This would seem to indicate that the greatness of the temple is in man’s eyes not God’s. You don’t need to try to refute this argument (unless you really want to, but I’m sure we could go back and forth all day long). I just wanted to quickly make the point that the verse is not explicitly a claim of diety and it is not irrefutable.

If you can think of an explicit claim of diety by Jesus, I would love to here it.

JK

I’ve read the Bible cover to cover three times, have read the Gospels probably over 100 times and various other chunks of the Bible dozens of times. I’ve studied the Bible formally for five years. I can tell you that if you are looking for a verse where Jesus says, “I am God” then you are not going to find it.

One thing I have learned in my years of reading, studying, meditating and praying scripture is that it is a unified whole. No word can be taken apart from a verse, no verse apart from a chapter, no chapter apart from a book and no book apart from the whole Bible. It is a unified whole. And that unified whole Scripture is part of the unified whole Church.

The entire Bible agrees that Jesus is God. The fact that it is not stated explicitly in three of the books in the Bible proves nothing. It is simple.I really see no need to struggle with it.

-Tim-

 

[patrick457]

The Arians professed the Jesus was just a man. They used the bible to support such a view and were condemned for heresy. Not because the bible proved them wrong, but because the Church, at Ecumenical councils determined that, from the evidence, Jesus was God.

AND the councils accepted John as an inspired book.

It is not necessary that Luke believe Jesus was God, but that the Church, who is infallible, teach He is God. If you learn the Church has all truth, then this follows. There is no simple path to knowing who He is. Each of us must find him with the help of other Christians.

Wrong. What the Arians said is that the Son is a divine being created by the Father and thus is inferior to Him. You might be thinking of the Ebionites.

 

[EricFilmer]

My friend’s opinion is that Mark, Matthew and Luke might not believe Jesus was God when they only used the term Son of God. He maintained it was a blasphemy for them to also believe Jesus was God. How should I approach this issue? Thank you

The synoptic gospels (i.e., Matthew, Mark & Luke) do indeed demonstrate that Jesus is God, it’s just a question of how. These gospels were (among other things) designed to be catechetical tools to teach people the fundamentals of Christology. It seems evident that Matthew, Mark & Luke felt it was better to demonstrate Jesus’ divinity by strongly implying it rather than explicitly stating, “Jesus is God.” As a side note, John wrote his gospel much later and takes Christology to a more advanced level, presuming that his readers have already been instructed in one or more of the synoptic gospels.

Here is one example of how the synoptic gospels demonstrate the divinity of Jesus, drawing primarily upon the event where Jesus healed the paralytic (Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26).

1) According to Jewish understanding, whereas a person can forgive someone who has offended him personally, every sin is also an offense against God and only God can ultimately forgive sins.

2) As far as anyone in the crowd knew, the paralytic had never encountered Jesus before, and had never done anything against Jesus. And yet Jesus ascribed to himself the role of God by declaring that all the paralytic’s sins were forgiven. This is the reason that some people in the crowd accused him of blasphemy. Whereas all the synoptic gospels include the blasphemy accusation, Mark & Luke clarify the rationale behind this by including the crowd’s question, “Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

3) Jesus then miraculously healed the paralytic. Obviously God does not perform miracles through a blasphemer, so this was God the Father confirming that Jesus possessed the divine ability to forgive sins. Simply put, Jesus ascribed to himself the role of God because he is God.

4) Jesus also did things well beyond what prophets could do (according to what the Jews considered to be the limitations of prophets). For example, he raised a man from the dead who had been dead for over three days and exorcized a mute demon. Moreover, Jesus made certain claims beyond what the prophets did. For example, he claimed that he was the judge of the entire human race, would rise from the dead, and would come back to take his followers into heaven. He declared himself to be the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except through him. Anyone making such incredible claims is either the Lord, a horrific liar, a delusional lunatic or a false prophet. God does not raise delusional lunatics, horrific liars or false prophets from the dead, so the Resurrection is a final divine confirmation of everything Jesus said and did.

5) In light of all this, even though the synoptic gospels do not specifically state, “Jesus is God,” the reader naturally comes to this conclusion if he considers each gospel in its entirety.

 

[hochoithem]

The synoptic gospels (i.e., Matthew, Mark & Luke) do indeed demonstrate that Jesus is God, it’s just a question of how. These gospels were (among other things) designed to be catechetical tools to teach people the fundamentals of Christology. It seems evident that Matthew, Mark & Luke felt it was better to demonstrate Jesus’ divinity by strongly implying it rather than explicitly stating, “Jesus is God.” As a side note, John wrote his gospel much later and takes Christology to a more advanced level, presuming that his readers have already been instructed in one or more of the synoptic gospels.

Here is one example of how the synoptic gospels demonstrate the divinity of Jesus, drawing primarily upon the event where Jesus healed the paralytic (Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26).

1) According to Jewish understanding, whereas a person can forgive someone who has offended him personally, every sin is also an offense against God and only God can ultimately forgive sins.

2) As far as anyone in the crowd knew, the paralytic had never encountered Jesus before, and had never done anything against Jesus. And yet Jesus ascribed to himself the role of God by declaring that all the paralytic’s sins were forgiven. This is the reason that some people in the crowd accused him of blasphemy. Whereas all the synoptic gospels include the blasphemy accusation, Mark & Luke clarify the rationale behind this by including the crowd’s question, “Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

3) Jesus then miraculously healed the paralytic. Obviously God does not perform miracles through a blasphemer, so this was God the Father confirming that Jesus possessed the divine ability to forgive sins. Simply put, Jesus ascribed to himself the role of God because he is God.

4) Jesus also did things well beyond what prophets could do (according to what the Jews considered to be the limitations of prophets). For example, he raised a man from the dead who had been dead for over three days and exorcized a mute demon. Moreover, Jesus made certain claims beyond what the prophets did. For example, he claimed that he was the judge of the entire human race, would rise from the dead, and would come back to take his followers into heaven. He declared himself to be the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except through him. Anyone making such incredible claims is either the Lord, a horrific liar, a delusional lunatic or a false prophet. God does not raise delusional lunatics, horrific liars or false prophets from the dead, so the Resurrection is a final divine confirmation of everything Jesus said and did.

5) In light of all this, even though the synoptic gospels do not specifically state, “Jesus is God,” the reader naturally comes to this conclusion if he considers each gospel in its entirety.

Thank you.

 

[babs57]

In John, also, Thomas says, “My Lord and my God”, and Jesus says “Because you have seen, you believe. Blessed are those who have not seen and believe.” (Jn 20:28-29)

All the apostles were there, Matthew being among them. There is no mention of any of the apostles questioning this statement of Thomas’.