Song and Music leader at Mass

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I go to a 5pm Sunday Mass at our parish. It is geared to the youth but it is not a “lifeteen” Mass. Often our music group is unorthadox. I also help with the youth program (which is very good but seperate from the music group) I have threes small girls 6, 4,1. Sometimes the group sings “Yes Lord (I’m trading my sorrows)” complete with some ridiculous hand jiving that they say passes as sign language that they encourage the whole congregation to join in. I have kept my kids from doing this.
Today, on of the singers in the group (whom I consider a freind and also helps with the youth program) comes up to my girls before Mass in front of me and told them to make sure they did the hand signals at the end of Mass. I said “No, we do not do that” She continued to tell my kids to do this and said “dont listen to daddy, daddy is silly” I informed her that it wasnt proper or correct and she said that it is always propper and correct to joyfully worship. I indicated that I did not want to talk about it before Mass in front of everyone and that I would be happy to get her the information on why it is not proper. She said, “do you think I care?” and I said “nope, I dont.” She still told my girls to do this and that is what really angered me. I said she should not undermine me in front of my kids and that we are trying to teach them the proper way to worship in Mass. She said, “you mean what you think is proper” I agreed and looking strait at her told her that they are my kids and it is unaceptable to undermine me in front of them. I was livid and am actually proud of myself for being logical and levelheaded. But still, I fumed (which is not a good way to go through Mass)
So I need help in two ways.
  1. I need good recources on why this type of party atmosphere hand dancing music is inappropriate for Mass. (she also indicated that the closing song is not part of Mass anyway so they can sing and do whatever they want.) I will also e-mail Father, but I dont expect too much in response. I would also like to present a nicely worded explination to our youth music leader.
  2. What should I do to indicate that she should never contradict me in front of my kids again. She is single and has none of her own.
I really do not want to “find another Mass” or" find another Parish" because we have many friends and are very involved with the youth program, though I do lament our “style” of Mass.
 
I don’t have the time to check out resources for you, but after quickly reading your post, I have to say (about that lady): What a jerk!!! I would write a letter to the pastor, not rudely, but firmly, and explain what happened. That is completely unacceptable. I must say I’m shocked.
 
Catholicpotato said:
I go to a 5pm Sunday Mass at our parish. It is geared to the youth but it is not a “lifeteen” Mass. Often our music group is unorthadox. I also help with the youth program (which is very good but seperate from the music group) I have threes small girls 6, 4,1. Sometimes the group sings “Yes Lord (I’m trading my sorrows)” complete with some ridiculous hand jiving that they say passes as sign language that they encourage the whole congregation to join in. I have kept my kids from doing this.
Today, on of the singers in the group (whom I consider a freind and also helps with the youth program) comes up to my girls before Mass in front of me and told them to make sure they did the hand signals at the end of Mass…
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:eek:

Completely unprofessional and horrific EXCEPT … you said you consider her a “friend”. So what I see here is some too casual “friend” getting the lines of friendship and professionalism blurred. In fact, she probably took your actions as personal betrayal.

I’m not defending her. no no no. Completely unacceptable; just trying to help you be less outraged at her immature behavior.

I hope your children listened to you. Poor things. I suppose it was a good lesson in peer pressure for them and learning to follow correct authority.

I haven’t seen anything prohibiting hand gestures, per se. I mean, Masses can have sign interpreters for the deaf. It would definitely be something about distractions and such. I’m sure someone else will come up with it. But beyond that, friend or not; this woman went way beyond her position to directly confront you regarding this. Please do not hesitate to write a letter to your pastor, or whomever you feel would handle this best. This woman needs to be corrected.

Blessings.
 
Ouch.

I would also be fuming if someone tried to teach my son to ignore my authority to advance their own opinions. Ouch.

Here’s a link to the USCCB document “Sing to the Lord.” I haven’t had a chance to read through it to find exactly what you’re looking for, but there are definitely parts of it that indicate a need for reverence, and even silence. Hope you can find what you’re looking for there.

Gertie
 
Hi, this might be long so I apologize in advance.

My first reaction to the OP was the same as the one above “what a jerk”. But then, as I always strive to do, I thought about it from her angle. I’m guessing that her number one concern leading music is congregation participation. Many times People will stop singing or doing actions if they see others not doing them, so she wanted to nip that in the bud.

Now I only recently have come around to thinking that those types of worship song are inappropriate for Mass (and they are indeed worshipful, just a bit boisterous for the solemn occasion of the Mass. Before that I was fairly adamant that we needed to make the Mass exciting for teens to want to be there. But that’s another story. My point is that she probably has that point of view. If you try and change that point of view right now (or like you did before your Mass) she is going to continue to shoot you down. She hasn’t been educated in what is appropriate for Mass. This education should come from your pastor. Another option would be CALMLY approaching her and asking if you could help with the music ministry and change it from within.

As for her undrrmining your authority, yes, she shouldnt have done that. But like I said, she was probably more concerned with congregation participation, and because of her lack of education in this area she didn’t care for your opinion. According to her, she is doing nothing wrong in this ministry. You can’t control her behavior so you can’t stop her from ever contradicting her again. However, you can take her aside, at a time that she is not busy and can give you full attention and talk to her. If you start out with something like “hi, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this ministry. I can tell you truly care for reaching people through music. Now, I know you and I don’t see eye to eye on the whole actions in church issue, I’m sorry for the way that the conversation before unfolded. I am trying to raise my kids in the best way I can and I think them seeing this argument was confusing to say the least. Do you agree?” etc. Just don’t attack her, or else she’llget defensive and things will escalate.

Hope this makes sense and helps!
 
InspiritCarol said:
:eek:

Completely unprofessional and horrific EXCEPT … you said you consider her a “friend”. So what I see here is some too casual “friend” getting the lines of friendship and professionalism blurred. In fact, she probably took your actions as personal betrayal.

I’m not defending her. no no no. Completely unacceptable; just trying to help you be less outraged at her immature behavior.

I hope your children listened to you. Poor things. I suppose it was a good lesson in peer pressure for them and learning to follow correct authority.

I haven’t seen anything prohibiting hand gestures, per se. I mean, Masses can have sign interpreters for the deaf. It would definitely be something about distractions and such. I’m sure someone else will come up with it. But beyond that, friend or not; this woman went way beyond her position to directly confront you regarding this. Please do not hesitate to write a letter to your pastor, or whomever you feel would handle this best. This woman needs to be corrected.

Blessings.
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Yes, the freindship is light at best and we do kind of share sarcasic quips which I see has blurred the line that she crossed. I take some responsibility fo that. But she did cross a line that was definately there. I have to see her in meetings and gatherings for mutual freinds so I dont want to go balistic on her but I feel as if she really pushed me.

The song and participation there of is not for the deaf, nor is any part of the Mass signed. It is just a sing songy dance that the music group likes to rock out to. It is inapproriate and about 1/5 of the attendees give into the bands pressure.
 
Gertabelle said:
Ouch.

I would also be fuming if someone tried to teach my son to ignore my authority to advance their own opinions. Ouch.

Here’s a link to the USCCB document “Sing to the Lord.” I haven’t had a chance to read through it to find exactly what you’re looking for, but there are definitely parts of it that indicate a need for reverence, and even silence. Hope you can find what you’re looking for there.

Gertie
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Thanks, looks like I have some reading to do.
 
Cami4 said:
Hi, this might be long so I apologize in advance.

My first reaction to the OP was the same as the one above “what a jerk”. But then, as I always strive to do, I thought about it from her angle. I’m guessing that her number one concern leading music is congregation participation.I agree, she is not the leader, but she does press for everyone to sing. Many times People will stop singing or doing actions if they see others not doing them, so she wanted to nip that in the bud. Which would be nice. We shouldnt be doing “actions” for songs in the Mass anyway. And this brings up another question: If the band insists on taking the top 20 “christian” worship songs on the radio and bringing them to Mass, should we sing at all?

Now I only recently have come around to thinking that those types of worship song are inappropriate for Mass (and they are indeed worshipful, just a bit boisterous for the solemn occasion of the Mass.I LOVE many chrisitan worship songs and my wife and I love to go to concerts! Before that I was fairly adamant that we needed to make the Mass exciting for teens to want to be there.Yes, this kind of “lifeteen” mentality has been pushed on us for sometime, it is starting to become clear that the Lords call in the Mass and the MTV presentation thereof do not attract teens to authentic faith. Teens are so thirsty for something REAL! But that’s another story. My point is that she probably has that point of view. If you try and change that point of view right now (or like you did before your Mass) she is going to continue to shoot you downNot in front of my kids again or they might see daddy lose it;). She hasn’t been educated in what is appropriate for Mass. This education should come from your pastor. Another option would be CALMLY approaching her and asking if you could help with the music ministry and change it from within.

As for her undrrmining your authority, yes, she shouldnt have done that. But like I said, she was probably more concerned with congregation participation,Again, what are we called to participate in? and because of her lack of education in this area she didn’t care for your opinion. According to her, she is doing nothing wrong in this ministry. You can’t control her behavior so you can’t stop her from ever contradicting her againActually I can, I just want advice on the most logical, and tactful way to go about it… However, you can take her aside, at a time that she is not busy and can give you full attention and talk to her. If you start out with something like “hi, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this ministry. I can tell you truly care for reaching people through music. Now, I know you and I don’t see eye to eye on the whole actions in church issue, I’m sorry for the way that the conversation before unfolded. I am trying to raise my kids in the best way I can and I think them seeing this argument was confusing to say the least. Do you agree?” etc. Just don’t attack her, or else she’llget defensive and things will escalate.

Hope this makes sense and helps!
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I see your point about the “participation”. But like I said, I don’t think she thinks that their songs are inappropriate, so she is encouraging participation in the form of worship they deem to be good. I think this is something that the new missel will be addressing… At least that’s what it sounds like from my music leader. I definitely agree now that most people are looking for something real in the Mass, not entertainment. (side note: I prefer the music at our 6 pm lifeteen Mass because it is more meaningful than the hokey 70s songs played at the 11 am Mass, but the 6 pm leader has a great sense of what is a concert or youth rally song vs a Mass song)

I think just calmly talking to her alone without attacking her actions or opioid will help with the whole kids issue.
 
I’m very familiar with the song that the OP mentioned - I used to sing it all the time in my Pentecostal days (it’s an annoying piece of fluff of a song IMO). I’m very shocked to hear that it is being used in a Mass. It doesn’t have the sense of reverence and respect to it I’ve come to love about Mass. Actually, when we sang it in the Pentecostal Church, it involved a lot of jumping and hand waving… :rolleyes:
 
How about we get people participating fully in the Mass in the ways they are required to (internally and externally), before we press people to participate in some other external and periphery ways (like waving hands or making gestures to songs)?
 
Cami4 said:
Hi, this might be long so I apologize in advance.

My first reaction to the OP was the same as the one above “what a jerk”. But then, as I always strive to do, I thought about it from her angle. I’m guessing that her number one concern leading music is congregation participation. Many times People will stop singing or doing actions if they see others not doing them, so she wanted to nip that in the bud.

Now I only recently have come around to thinking that those types of worship song are inappropriate for Mass (and they are indeed worshipful, just a bit boisterous for the solemn occasion of the Mass. Before that I was fairly adamant that we needed to make the Mass exciting for teens to want to be there. But that’s another story. My point is that she probably has that point of view. If you try and change that point of view right now (or like you did before your Mass) she is going to continue to shoot you down. She hasn’t been educated in what is appropriate for Mass. This education should come from your pastor. Another option would be CALMLY approaching her and asking if you could help with the music ministry and change it from within.

As for her undrrmining your authority, yes, she shouldnt have done that. But like I said, she was probably more concerned with congregation participation, and because of her lack of education in this area she didn’t care for your opinion. According to her, she is doing nothing wrong in this ministry. You can’t control her behavior so you can’t stop her from ever contradicting her again. However, you can take her aside, at a time that she is not busy and can give you full attention and talk to her. If you start out with something like “hi, I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this ministry. I can tell you truly care for reaching people through music. Now, I know you and I don’t see eye to eye on the whole actions in church issue, I’m sorry for the way that the conversation before unfolded. I am trying to raise my kids in the best way I can and I think them seeing this argument was confusing to say the least. Do you agree?” etc. Just don’t attack her, or else she’llget defensive and things will escalate.

Hope this makes sense and helps!
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You speak as if these hand gestures during Mass is a good thing. You also have a skewed look at active participation. Just because people don’t do “hand gestures”, or even if they don’t sing, they still can actively participate in the Mass.
 
  1. This individual is not your friend, in any sense of the word.
  2. I would complain to the pastor about someone who carries out duties in the parish and who would dare to approach someone publicly and address his children, telling them to disobey their father, that “daddy is silly,” say “Do you think I care?” and be so rude. How dare she undermine a parent and do so publicly. That is inexcusable.
 
TheMc said:
You speak as if these hand gestures during Mass is a good thing. You also have a skewed look at active participation. Just because people don’t do “hand gestures”, or even if they don’t sing, they still can actively participate in the Mass.
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I feel like maybe you missed the part where I said that those types of songs are inappropriate for Mass… :rolleyes: But in any case, I agree that people can be actively participating without singing. However, that is a fairly recent idea in my thinking.

Although I do notice that the people who sing along tend to also be the ones who are really saying the words of the Mass and not just mumbling along along with the group.

As someone who does the music for the Mass you want the music to add to the spiritual impact. I am suggesting that maybe this woman judges the impact of the music by how many people are participating.
 
While Sing to the Lord might be a good resource, it is only binding when it refers to the authoritative documents of the Church. Perhaps the OP needs to read the following:

adoremus.org/SacramentumCaritatis.html

Especially #42:
Liturgical song
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  1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).
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adoremus.org/MusicamSacram.html

adoremus.org/liturgiamauthenticam.html

I hope this helps.
 
Countermanding your authority as a parent is bad. As someone you consider a friend, or even if they weren’t, that throws up a big red flag to begin with.

It’s important, I believe, for parishes to encourage the active participation of the youth in their midst. From what you’ve described, those responsible for planning and executing the music for this Mass aren’t doing an effective job. I’m in the camp of those who think that new music isn’t necessarily inappropriate for worship, but what you describe seems totally out of place, even to me.

If they were actually signing using American Sign Language, I think it would be less concerning. But then, I’d still say that it would be most appropriate for 1 person to sign the entire Mass (or what’s appropriate for a lay person to sign), not the entire choir.

Since you are already involved in the youth program, could you use that as an avenue to open a discussion with those who are responsible for the music? It might be better to open a dialogue and talk about the relevant documents as opposed to starting by complaining to the pastor.
 
Catholicpotato said:
I go to a 5pm Sunday Mass at our parish. It is geared to the youth but it is not a “lifeteen” Mass. Often our music group is unorthadox. I also help with the youth program (which is very good but seperate from the music group) I have threes small girls 6, 4,1. Sometimes the group sings “Yes Lord (I’m trading my sorrows)” complete with some ridiculous hand jiving that they say passes as sign language that they encourage the whole congregation to join in. I have kept my kids from doing this.
Today, on of the singers in the group (whom I consider a freind and also helps with the youth program) comes up to my girls before Mass in front of me and told them to make sure they did the hand signals at the end of Mass. I said “No, we do not do that” She continued to tell my kids to do this and said “dont listen to daddy, daddy is silly” I informed her that it wasnt proper or correct and she said that it is always propper and correct to joyfully worship. I indicated that I did not want to talk about it before Mass in front of everyone and that I would be happy to get her the information on why it is not proper. She said, “do you think I care?” and I said “nope, I dont.” She still told my girls to do this and that is what really angered me. I said she should not undermine me in front of my kids and that we are trying to teach them the proper way to worship in Mass. She said, “you mean what you think is proper” I agreed and looking strait at her told her that they are my kids and it is unaceptable to undermine me in front of them. I was livid and am actually proud of myself for being logical and levelheaded. But still, I fumed (which is not a good way to go through Mass)
So I need help in two ways.
  1. I need good recources on why this type of party atmosphere hand dancing music is inappropriate for Mass. (she also indicated that the closing song is not part of Mass anyway so they can sing and do whatever they want.) I will also e-mail Father, but I dont expect too much in response. I would also like to present a nicely worded explination to our youth music leader.
  2. What should I do to indicate that she should never contradict me in front of my kids again. She is single and has none of her own.
I really do not want to “find another Mass” or" find another Parish" because we have many friends and are very involved with the youth program, though I do lament our “style” of Mass.
Click to expand...
No one has the right to undermine your authority as a parent especially in front of your children sounds like you are teaching your children proper respect for the mass I would lose no time in telling the priest of you parish in a nice way oh yes I am single and I don’t have any children either and never will because of a hysterectemy that actually saved my life it was for uterine cancer but I still have the sense enough to know that you do not undermine a parents authority especially in front of their children keep up the good work we need more parents like you who will teach their children the proper respect for mass.
 
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