Sorry, Martin, we got it wrong!

[NoelFitz]

I have been studying the Pastoral Epistles and I have been helped by many of you here.

Now I hope to study Paul in general. The problem I need to tackle head on first is the relationship of faith, works, justification, sanctification and righteousness. Problems between Protestants (Lutherans) go back to the time when Martin Luther got an insight into the meaning of “The one who is righteous will live by faith.” (NRSV, Rom 1:17b).

Perhaps it is worthwhile to clarify some issues before I get too immersed in what Paul meant. The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church, now over 10 years old, is perhaps a good place to start (vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html).

Lutherans and Catholics fought over what Paul was trying to get at. But recently the Catholic Church admitted it got it wrong when the Church noted *“The teaching of the Lutheran Churches presented in the Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent.” *vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-official-statement_en.html

The doctrine of justification has been the principal difference between Catholic and Protestants for centuries, but now both Catholics and Protestants (Lutherans) “are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ” (JD, 5). There is no talk about works here. So, sorry, Martin, for the misunderstanding, you see the* “churches have come to new insights”* (JD, 7) and we all agree with Paul (Rom 3:23) that justifications comes from God’s grace through faith (JD, 9).

It is worth emphasizing “y grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works" (JD 15).

 

[Belloc_Fan]

Lutherans and Catholics fought over what Paul was trying to get at. But recently the Catholic Church admitted it got it wrong when the Church noted *“The teaching of the Lutheran Churches presented in the Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent.” *vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-official-statement_en.html

I appreciate what you’re trying to do, but you need to be cautious about it. The above quote, for example, is just wrong.

Few things to note:
(1) Catholics believe that Trent was protected by the Holy Spirit. If there was an authentic disagreement between this joint declaration and Trent, Trent wins.
(2) Just because the “teaching of the Lutheran Churches presented in the Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent” doesn’t mean **no **Lutheran teachings run afoul of Trent (obviously!), much less that Trent was wrong. I don’t even see where you’re getting this conclusion from what you’re quoting.
(3) The joint declaration actually re-affirms the Council of Trent. From footnote 1:

Doctrinal condemnations were put forward both in the Lutheran Confessions[3] and by the Roman Catholic Church’s Council of Trent. These condemnations are still valid today and thus have a church-dividing effect.

So it’s true that the condemnations of the Council of Trent aren’t blanket condemnations of Lutheranism, but that’s old news – reading the conciliar texts will tell you as well. Trent was careful to condemn very specific positions. Those condemnations are still valid, and are still one reason that Lutherans and Catholics are separated (since they want to affirm what the Church says that they may not affirm). But other views on justification within Lutheranism are compatible, at least theoretically, with the Council of Trent.

So no need to apologize to Martin just yet – keep reading on what the Church teaches.

 

[Nita]

In addition to the actual Joint Declaration, it’s important to read the official “RESPONSE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO THE JOINT DECLARATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE LUTHERAN WORLD FEDERATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION”
My understanding is that the Joint Declaration was signed by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. The document was subsequently reviewed by the Church and an official response was made – clarifying and amending certain parts.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html

 

[NoelFitz]

Nita

many thanks for your reply . I am very impressed and grateful that you took the time to clarify my post. As you know I hope to study Paul in detail and a primary concern is to clarify in my own mind, as far as I can, the Paulind idea of justification.

The URL you gave me is important.

I particularly like the conclusion

1. The Catholic Church wishes to reiterate its hope that this important step forward towards agreement in doctrine on justification may be followed by further studies that will make possible a satisfactory clarification of the divergencies that still exist. Particularly desirable would be a deeper reflection on the biblical foundation that is the common basis of the doctrine on justification both for Catholics and for Lutherans. …

1. Finally, it should be a common concern of Lutherans and Catholics to find a language which can make the doctrine on justification more intelligible also for men and women of our day. The fundamental truths of the salvation given by Christ and received in faith, of the primacy of grace over every human initiative, of the gift of the Holy Spirit which makes us capable of living according to our condition as children of God, and so on. These are essential aspects of the Christian message that should be a light for the believers of all times.

So it is worth while to try to grapple with this vital issue and an ideal forum is here in CA.

 

[NoelFitz]

Belloc Fan

Your reply to me is concise, clear, robust and knowledgable. It shows a legal mind at its best, and augurs well for a successful career in the law.

I am reminded of Belloc’s famous lines.

*When I am dead, I hope it may be said:
‘His sins were scarlet, but his books were read.’ *

In fact I like my posts to be read and to encourage replies and debates; hence the titles of my topics may be somewhat provocative at times.

Nothing in your post is contrary to Catholic belief, and hence I accept your points.

However it must be remembered what is written in the Joint Declaration:

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works (JD 15, my emphasis).

 

[Bookcat]

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

 

[Nita]

Belloc Fan

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess:** By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God **

Re the part you bolded – As far as I know, that is what the Church has always taught – that is, “grace” is the only factor to which one can attach the word “alone”. So what do you mean when you say in the thread title that “we got it wrong”.

Unfortunately some of the reformers attached the word “alone” to “faith” (sola fide), and I thought Martin was one of them. I believe he even inserted the word “alone” (faith alone) in Romans 3:28 when he translated the Bible so it would agree with his teaching. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[NoelFitz]

Dear Martin,

I hope you are keeping well and that the climate is not too hot.

It seems apologizing is in fashion now, so I apologized to you and it seems I should apologize to others for not being correct in my views.

Things are not too bad at present here, but we do have problems. Every 500 years there seems to be a major problem in the Church.

In about 500 AD, even after the death of your mentor Augustine, it seemed the whole world would collapse in the dark ages. With the exception in a cold wintry country, Ireland, for many it seemed civilization had collapsed. Then in about 1000 AD the Church split between East and West. In your time (about 1500) the western part of the Church split North and South. Now the Church is again in crisis but as the Holy Ghost, now we call him the Holy Spirit, promised to be with the Church always some of us, who are hanging on, are not too dispirited.

Thing in the Church change slowly, but they do change. Your ideas have been taken on board and we now have vernacular liturgies, the Bible is being studied more in the Church, there is more lay participation and Latin has been almost completely phased out. I am pleased with the JD between your followers and those who remained faithful to the Church.

You were not too impressed with the papacy. I am not too sure whether this was the institution itself or the individual popes. Recently we have had brilliant popes. They are no longer from aristocratic Roman families with a background in politics, diplomacy and administration. Now they are non-Italian Europeans academic scholars. The current man has a background similar to yours, being a German theologian. The previous one was the first pope to be called The Great in about 1300 years.

Both yourself and the present pope, as both of you are German academic biblical scholars, I imagine, would agree with the words delivered in a recent weekly audience, 19 Nov, 2008:

*The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his (Paul’s) Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html *

Please give my best regards to Mrs. Luther,

Best wishes,

NoelFitz

 

[inkaneer]

Perhaps it is worthwhile to clarify some issues before I get too immersed in what Paul meant. The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church, now over 10 years old, is perhaps a good place to start

Lutherans and Catholics fought over what Paul was trying to get at. But recently the Catholic Church admitted it got it wrong when the Church noted *“The teaching of the Lutheran Churches presented in the Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent.” *

Did it ever occur to you that what Lutherans teach today is not the same as they taught at the time of Trent? Trent was very specific in what it condemned. Much of Lutheranism as well as othe protestant denominations teachings have changed over the years. Remember Luther believed in Mary as the Mother of God, that she was immaculately concieved and was a perpetual virgin. Try to find a Lutheran today who believes that.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Did it ever occur to you that what Lutherans teach today is not the same as they taught at the time of Trent? Trent was very specific in what it condemned. Much of Lutheranism as well as othe protestant denominations teachings have changed over the years. Remember Luther believed in Mary as the Mother of God, that she was immaculately concieved and was a perpetual virgin. Try to find a Lutheran today who believes that.

That’s right, Lutherans since Luther have conceded some theological points to Calvinist Reformed theology.

Luther debated Zwingli, and accused Zwingli of trying to take the gospel from him.

 

[NoelFitz]

Inkaneer & Mackbrislawn

many thanks for your replies.

I had hoped this discussion would generate more interest as the title was slightly provocative.

I hope to study Paul this academic year, so justification is important. But the views of Paul differ from those of Luther, Zwingli and many modern Protestants, even though in these ecumenical days many Catholics and Protestants agree on a range of topics.