Soul at conception and identical twins

[marthax2]

Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason, appeared on C-span last weekend. He ridiculed the idea of creation of the soul by bringing up the issue of identical twins and also of the rare event where one twin is resorbed into the other. Certainly God must create another soul at the time of the division of the fetus into two. In the case of resorption, does the other soul go to heaven?

 

[1ke]

Of course God creates a soul at conception, and if a twin comes into existence God creates their soul at the moment of their conception.

In the case of reabsorbtion the second twin dies, therefore the soul leaves the body of the second twin. The souls of the unbaptized are left to God’s mercy.

Twins do not provide any “evidence” against the creation of the soul at conception.

 

[Della]

1ke:

Of course God creates a soul at conception, and if a twin comes into existence God creates their soul at the moment of their conception.

In the case of reabsorbtion the second twin dies, therefore the soul leaves the body of the second twin. The souls of the unbaptized are left to God’s mercy.

Twins do not provide any “evidence” against the creation of the soul at conception.

We are certainly free to believe these things, and this is probably what does happen. But, to answer Mr. Harris we don’t have to make these claims because the Church doesn’t make them.

The Church has not said when ensoulment happens for the very sensible reason that we cannot know that at this point in time. It may become evident in the future that ensoulment happens as you described it, however.

The Church says that since we cannot know (at this time) when ensoulment occurs, to abort or cause the fertilized egg to not attach and develop naturally, is a grave sin precisely because we may be killing a ensouled human being. Mr. Harris’ argument may have some merit with those bodies of believers who insist that ensoulment happens at conception, but since neither he nor anyone can be sure of it, his statements are premature and rash, as we would be if we insisted on ensoulment at conception.

 

[Brendan]

1ke:

Of course God creates a soul at conception, and if a twin comes into existence God creates their soul at the moment of their conception.

.

Generally speaking, the creation of the second soul probably does NOT happen at the moment of conception.

The soul is what animates the matter. At the time of conception, there is but a single cell, and this animated by only one soul.

The second soul, could either be created at the first moment of cell division, created two persons that grow together until they split, or at the actual moment of splitting.

Each has a presidence we can look at.

In the case of conjoined (Siamese) twins, we would certainly say they they are not a single soul, but rather two souls animating a conjoined body.

This is a great description of the two souls, each animating part of what appears to be a single zygote, but is, in realilty, two persons with a conjoined bodies.

In the case of a new soul being created at the moment of separtion, this happens all the time in real life.

If I take a cell from my body, in is no longer animated by my body, but rather by a new soul vegative (non immortal) soul that God immediatly creates. The cell is still alive, it is just not me as a person.

In the case of a zugote twinning, it could be the result of the creation of a new, rational, immortal soul that animates the newly formed body. (again think of the body formed of Adam’s rib being animated by the newly created soul of Eve)

Either one is acceptable for a Catholic to hold. In fact, as the Church has not yet ruled on exactly what happenes, a Catholic could also hold to the two souls at Conception; though, as pointed out above, there are some real theological issues that render such a belief improbable.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I don’t see it any different than a pregnant woman.

I’m pregnant. In this 1 body resides 2 souls at the moment.

If I were pregnant with twins, it’d be 3 souls.

If I have this baby or m/c, then it’s back to 1 soul residing here.

If I were pregnant with identical twins, there’s 2 souls at conception residing in 1 cellular matter. If 1 “dies” and the matter is absorbed by the other, then it’s 1 soul residing there.

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Of course, this is NOT official by the Church, but it’s just as possible and just as logical as that man’s arguement, imo.

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It’s a mute issue anyhow. The issue is when does life begin/end? On this the Church is official in saying it begins with conception and ends with death. What the soul does in between those 2 events does not change its status as living being.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Why can’t God create two souls to begin with, since he would know that the fertized egg is going to split?! Thus both souls would be created at conception.

 

[Della]

Daniel Marsh:

Why can’t God create two souls to begin with, since he would know that the fertized egg is going to split?! Thus both souls would be created at conception.

Of course, he can do that, and he may do that, but since we cannot know he does do that at this point in time (later researches may show this to be true), it is best not to say definitely. This is not a way to wimp out but rather a defense against those who would claim, later on, that the Church defined something wrongly, and thus bring the Word of God into question.

 

[Brendan]

Daniel Marsh:

Why can’t God create two souls to begin with, since he would know that the fertized egg is going to split?! Thus both souls would be created at conception.

Sure He could, but the question remains, why would He chose to violate the very purpose of the soul.

The soul exists to animate the body. Without the soul the body is lifeless matter, indistingushable form other matter.

With a soul, it has life. What life does the second soul bring to the body? What does it animate?

A person is defined by the Church as a unity of Body and Soul ('corprae et anima unis"). That a human person is an entity that has both a soul AND A BODY. That the soul is the Form of the Body. Without a body, there is no human person, nothing to conform to the Soul.

On the other hand, what would be the issue of having the second soul created at a subsequent time, either after the initial cell splits, or the moment of biological seperation?

In either case there, there is both matter and soul, a unity of body and soul, a person.

 

[Brendan]

Della:

Of course, he can do that, and he may do that, but since we cannot know he does do that at this point in time (later researches may show this to be true), it is best not to say definitely. This is not a way to wimp out but rather a defense against those who would claim, later on, that the Church defined something wrongly, and thus bring the Word of God into question.

It isn’t a defense either Della.

The Church needs no defense except for Truth. And the Church is prevented from teaching other than Truth.

The Church is not the Source of Truth, but rather it’s recipeint (Pillar and Foundation)

As part of that, the Church may only teach what God has reveled to Her, either through Divine Revelation (Scriprture and Tradition), or via Natural Revelation (science)

So far, God has chosen that the precise moment and method of ensoulment remain a Mystery.

 

[Della]

Brendan:

It isn’t a defense either Della.

The Church needs no defense except for Truth. And the Church is prevented from teaching other than Truth.

The Church is not the Source of Truth, but rather it’s recipeint (Pillar and Foundation)

As part of that, the Church may only teach what God has reveled to Her, either through Divine Revelation (Scriprture and Tradition), or via Natural Revelation (science)

So far, God has chosen that the precise moment and method of ensoulment remain a Mystery.

It may not be a primary defence, which I didn’t claim, but a secondary one that would make sense to someone who doesn’t accept the fuller explanation you provided for us. Sometimes we have to meet people where they are–help them see an issue from an angle they can both understand and accept.

 

[JimG]

Somehow I suspect that Mr. Harris does not even believe in the existence of a supernatural soul. If so, why is he concerned about this theological issue? The question is, are the twins not human beings? Did a new human entity ot come into existence when the sperm and the egg united? And is this new human, whether one or two, worthy of our protection?