Soul Theory

[freesoulhope]

What is the true nature of an immortal soul?
I maintain that one does in fact have an immaterial soul that one is responsible for. However; Could it be possible, that we are purely material beings, and that the immortal soul is not an actual thing by itself, but rather is a **God given principle **or idea which provides the “potentaility” of matter; and then, based upon a specific arrangement of atoms, the potentiality, through the meduim of natural mechanisms, gives rise to the actuality of an organism with a rational mind? Upon death, one, in the finite sense of being a concious rational being, ceases to be, but ones memory and personal self is maintained by God as a principle or idea which God reunites with a new body in the new world.

Its just an idea, and i can sense possible problems in respect of the moral responsibility of an indivisual being, but would this idea contradict currunt theology; or could it in fact provide another possible interpretation for the true nature of the immortal soul?

 

[tm30]

uh… no.

You’re talking about reincarnation, which is a nonstarter in Catholic thought.

 

[freesoulhope]

uh… no.

You’re talking about reincarnation, which is a nonstarter in Catholic thought.

In what sense does my theory compare to reincarnation? Reincarnation is said to happen with out the aid of God. Catholic Theology and the bible gives me the imppression that we will be united with new bodies, and will reside on a new earth. Cheack revelation.

 

[rpp]

Here is a link to what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say about the nature of the soul.

newadvent.org/summa/1075.htm

 

[davidv]

In what sense does my theory compare to reincarnation? Reincarnation is said to happen with out the aid of God. Catholic Theology and the bible gives me the imppression that we will be united with new bodies, and will reside on a new earth. Cheack revelation.

How did you get that impression? If Jesus showed us the Way, then that Way include getting back our original bodies in a perfected, glorified state. New, yes, but only in the state of the perfection, but not a separately disctint different one.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

What is the true nature of an immortal soul?
I maintain that one does in fact have an immaterial soul that one is responsible for. However; Could it be possible, that we are purely material beings, and that the immortal soul is not an actual thing by itself, but rather is a **God given principle **or idea which provides the “potentaility” of matter; and then, based upon a specific arrangement of atoms, the potentiality, through the meduim of natural mechanisms, gives rise to the actuality of an organism with a rational mind? Upon death, one, in the finite sense of being a concious rational being, ceases to be, but ones memory and personal self is maintained by God as a principle or idea which God reunites with a new body in the new world.

Its just an idea, and i can sense possible problems in respect of the moral responsibility of an indivisual being, but would this idea contradict currunt theology; or could it in fact provide another possible interpretation for the true nature of the immortal soul?

(Speaking as a non-Catholic)

I would posit the exact opposite. We are spiritual beings inhabiting material bodies or that our minds have created the matter. What we see has been created by mind and spirit. We are not merely biological mechanisms.

Peace…

MW

 

[catharina]

Link to Post # 3.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215392

 

[Brendan]

(Speaking as a non-Catholic)

I would posit the exact opposite. We are spiritual beings inhabiting material bodies or that our minds have created the matter. What we see has been created by mind and spirit. We are not merely biological mechanisms.

Peace…

MW

But we are not mearly Spiritual Beings as well. That is called Dualism.

We are the UNION of Body and Spirit, unique among all creation in that respect. That is what defines the human person. We are complete only when both are present. Which is why God provides a Ressurection of the Body, and has Resurrection of the Body Himself. Because the human person is not substantially present when either is lacking.

 

[Brendan]

In what sense does my theory compare to reincarnation? Reincarnation is said to happen with out the aid of God. Catholic Theology and the bible gives me the imppression that we will be united with new bodies, and will reside on a new earth. Cheack revelation.

Incarnation is the process of merging the soul with a body. That already happened once with us at conception.

If we are joined to a new, seperate body from the one we were initially incarnated with, that, by definition is REincarnation.

What happens at the Resurrection is that we are joined with the same bodies were were given at our conception, but they are perfected and glorified.

You seem to think of the body as other than the soul. They are distinct, but not seperate. They are seperatably (a result of sin), but our soul does not define who we are, but the body and the soul together. That is who God created us. Not as a Spirit in a shell but a spirit and body united as one creature.

 

[catharina]

But we are not mearly Spiritual Beings as well. That is called Dualism.

We are the UNION of Body and Spirit, unique among all creation in that respect. That is what defines the human person. We are complete only when both are present. Which is why God provides a Ressurection of the Body, and has Resurrection of the Body Himself. Because the human person is not substantially present when either is lacking.

Lovely. Thank you, Brendan.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

But we are not mearly Spiritual Beings as well. That is called Dualism.

We are the UNION of Body and Spirit, unique among all creation in that respect. That is what defines the human person. We are complete only when both are present. Which is why God provides a Ressurection of the Body, and has Resurrection of the Body Himself. Because the human person is not substantially present when either is lacking.

For now we seem to be union of body and spirit, which is really an illusion. In reality, we are simply a stream of consciousness which is part of the “great consciousness” of the universe. We manifest in this body and appear to be thus.

That doesn’t contradict what I was saying before. We are spiritual beings (consciousness) inhabiting earthly bodies (simply manifestations) made of dust. I believe in reincarnation, so once this earthly house is dissolved, the spirit or consciousness of a person moves on to another place and in a different form.

I don’t think we really do have a clue about what defines us as a human person. We provide theories and anecdotes, but I don’t think we can fully understand the “human person”. I don’t even like the word “person” as is used in Catholic circles. We can’t even grasp the mystery of Christ’s incarnation.

Have you heard of the law of attraction or anything by Esther Hicks? It explains a lot for me about who we are, what our purpose is and where we go from here.

Peace…

MW

 

[catharina]

MW - how terribly sad for you that you’ve bought into the great scam of Esther Hicks and Co. You describe yourself as a Christian Mystic but that has to be wishful thinking since nothing about the “teachings” of “seers/mediums” like Hicks speaks to (or reflects) Christian tradition, thought, practices or teachings.

What a sorry waste of your time, intelligence and life.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

MW - how terribly sad for you that you’ve bought into the great scam of Esther Hicks and Co. You describe yourself as a Christian Mystic but that has to be wishful thinking since nothing about the “teachings” of “seers/mediums” like Hicks speaks to (or reflects) Christian tradition, thought, practices or teachings.

What a sorry waste of your time, intelligence and life.

Sad? I’m very happy that I have had the opportunity to listen to their teaching. sigh I’ve explained my label of Christian mysticism before elsewhere. It’s the closest definition of who I am. Maybe I should just change it to avoid confusion.

I certainly don’t see Christianity in the traditional sense as being valid. That’s precisely why I prefer directly experiencing God in my own way as He chooses to reveal Himself. My experience with the supernatural doesn’t contradict their teachings, therefore I don’t have a problem. No wishful thinking here. I know from experience that their teachings are true for me.

The message from “abraham” is freeing and one of the most profound I’ve come across. I feel much more free, unshackled by outside forces and purposeful than I have in years. No waste for me. I have to say that I would never characterize your faith as being a waste of your time, intelligence and life. How sad for you that you speak this way.

Peace…

MW

 

[catharina]

Sad? I’m very happy that I have had the opportunity to listen to their teaching. sigh I’ve explained my label of Christian mysticism before elsewhere. It’s the closest definition of who I am. Maybe I should just change it to avoid confusion.

I certainly don’t see Christianity in the traditional sense as being valid. That’s precisely why I prefer directly experiencing God in my own way as He chooses to reveal Himself. My experience with the supernatural doesn’t contradict their teachings, therefore I don’t have a problem. No wishful thinking here. I know from experience that their teachings are true for me.

The message from “abraham” is freeing and one of the most profound I’ve come across. I feel much more free, unshackled by outside forces and purposeful than I have in years. No waste for me. I have to say that I would never characterize your faith as being a waste of your time, intelligence and life. How sad for you that you speak this way.

Peace…

MW

Not sad for me at all; simple truthful from me.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Not sad for me at all; simple truthful from me.

Is that what you call brutal honesty or what I call arrogant superiority complex?

I have no use for people who tell me I’m wasting my life, time and intelligence pursuing the Divine. I would never tell you that as a Catholic even though I disagree with your faith. I refuse to let anyone tell me who I am, what I am and how important my life and pursuits are. I listened to all that garbage growing up and it led me to alcoholism, depression and low self-image.

I leave you with the hope that you will find peace as I have.

Peace…

MW

 

[catharina]

Is that what you call brutal honesty or what I call arrogant superiority complex?

I have no use for people who tell me I’m wasting my life, time and intelligence pursuing the Divine. I would never tell you that as a Catholic even though I disagree with your faith. I refuse to let anyone tell me who I am, what I am and how important my life and pursuits are. I listened to all that garbage growing up and it led me to alcoholism, depression and low self-image.

I leave you with the hope that you will find peace as I have.

Peace…

MW

No kidding? The CHURCH led you to depression and alcoholism?
Here I thought those are DISEASES.

As for poor self esteem, you decided to demolish any notion of that and humility and name YOURSELF a Christian Mystic? Oh yeah, and now, you’re peaceful. Uh huh.

Peace that passes all understanding, no SPECIAL privileges nor rights nor titles, simply a graced Roman Catholic: that’s who I am. Perhaps you’ll submit a timeline to show the growth of Christian Mysticism from Assis, Avila and John of God up to you.

Did they REALLY say no one had ever seen God? Like you did?

Who is Jesus (who was very “seen” as I recall learning?)

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

No kidding? The CHURCH led you to depression and alcoholism?
Here I thought those are DISEASES.

No, ignorant people did. I was young and told I was worthless and my life was meaningless. I don’t understand why the nastyness? You have no compassion I guess.

As for poor self esteem, you decided to demolish any notion of that and humility and name YOURSELF a Christian Mystic? Oh yeah, and now, you’re peaceful. Uh huh.

I left my life of low self-esteem by caring about myself and believing I was worthy of existing. What is wrong with identifying with mysticism in the Christian tradition? I am peaceful and I always wish people peace. I don’t see you offering peace amidst this carnival atmosphere of sophomoric arrogance of yours.

Peace that passes all understanding, no SPECIAL privileges nor rights nor titles, simply a graced Roman Catholic: that’s who I am. Perhaps you’ll submit a timeline to show the growth of Christian Mysticism from Assis, Avila and John of God up to you.

Did they REALLY say no one had ever seen God? Like you did?

Who is Jesus (who was very “seen” as I recall learning?)

You come off as arrogant, rude and abusive, regardless of your thoughts of yourself. You may be the most loving person in the world, but I couldn’t tell it by your posting.

Didn’t realize there was a priesthood or papal office for mysticism. There are many Christian mystics that are not Catholic and not ascetic monks. I’m afraid my definition and yours is quite different. And, of course, yours is right?

You tell me? You know them so well. You tell me. I think we’re talking about different things here. I’m speaking of physical form with the physical senses. Do you understand that? Physical form, physical senses. Did they see him in that way? If so, that contradicts the words of the same Lord and Christ you say you follow.

I don’t understand how you don’t get it. I’m speaking of GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE FATHER, not GOD THE SON, GOD THE SON, GOD THE SON. It’s perfectly clear in Scripture from the lips of the Lord Jesus and St. Paul that no one has seen the face of God the Father. And you’ve done NOTHING to show otherwise.

So, either provide the text proof or sit down.

MW

 

[catharina]

No, ignorant people did. I was young and told I was worthless and my life was meaningless. I don’t understand why the nastyness? You have no compassion I guess.

I left my life of low self-esteem by caring about myself and believing I was worthy of existing. What is wrong with identifying with mysticism in the Christian tradition? I am peaceful and I always wish people peace. I don’t see you offering peace amidst this carnival atmosphere of sophomoric arrogance of yours.

You come off as arrogant, rude and abusive, regardless of your thoughts of yourself. You may be the most loving person in the world, but I couldn’t tell it by your posting.

Didn’t realize there was a priesthood or papal office for mysticism. There are many Christian mystics that are not Catholic and not ascetic monks. I’m afraid my definition and yours is quite different. And, of course, yours is right?

You tell me? You know them so well. You tell me. I think we’re talking about different things here. I’m speaking of physical form with the physical senses. Do you understand that? Physical form, physical senses. Did they see him in that way? If so, that contradicts the words of the same Lord and Christ you say you follow.

I don’t understand how you don’t get it. I’m speaking of GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE FATHER, not GOD THE SON, GOD THE SON, GOD THE SON. It’s perfectly clear in Scripture from the lips of the Lord Jesus and St. Paul that no one has seen the face of God the Father. And you’ve done NOTHING to show otherwise.

So, either provide the text proof or sit down.

MW

Arrogance? You’re giving a class in it.

You seem to have forgotten to continue reading in "John 14:

6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
8
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.”

If ANYONE with authority within the Church abused you through an abuse of his/her power. I apologize to you for that right now.

I will add that it’s unlikely that the CHURCH abused you.it.

 

[anthony022071]

What is the true nature of an immortal soul?

Rationality,and the capacity to conceive of God,and communicate with God.

I maintain that one does in fact have an immaterial soul that one is responsible for. However; Could it be possible, that we are purely material beings, and that the immortal soul is not an actual thing by itself, but rather is a **God given principle **or idea which provides the “potentaility” of matter; and then, based upon a specific arrangement of atoms, the potentiality, through the meduim of natural mechanisms, gives rise to the actuality of an organism with a rational mind?

Anything that lives has its life from spirit. Life is spirit. atter does not have life intrinsic to itself. If that were so,then everything on Earth would be alive. All matter may have atoms,or energy,but matter,by itself,doesn’t have life. Not everything in Nature is alive,and everything in Nature which is alive inclines toward death. The life in Nature is from spirit,which is extrinsic to Nature,and supernatural.

Upon death, one, in the finite sense of being a concious rational being, ceases to be, but ones memory and personal self is maintained by God as a principle or idea which God reunites with a new body in the new world.

We will live in the eternal memory of God,if we believe in Christ and obey him. God created us as persons,as beings,and he can preserve us as persons and beings.
But we will be in eternal communion with him.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Arrogance? You’re giving a class in it.

pot calling the kettle black.

You seem to have forgotten to continue reading in "John 14:

6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
8
Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.”

If ANYONE with authority within the Church abused you through an abuse of his/her power. I apologize to you for that right now.

I will add that it’s unlikely that the CHURCH abused you.it.

I have read the whole thing and the whole Bible. So, your understanding of Jesus’s words is that they are one person. If that were so, then how is there a trinity? You take this passage literally as being that the Father and the Son are the SAME in all respects and in personhood. They are the same in nature, purpose and holiness. They are not the same person. We would then have the Son/Father and the Holy Spirit. A dualism?

I never said a Church person abused me. Hasn’t anyone been listening? It was family. It was teachers. It was those I looked up to for guidance. You have no idea what I’ve been through just like I’ve no idea what you have been through. My experiences have formed who I am. I am true to myself, not to anyone’s idea of who I should or should not be. That would be living someone else’s life, not mine, which I refuse to do.

MW