Souls in Hell

[Sirach14]

" With the Church’s approval of the Fatima appearances, during which the Blessed Mother showed the three children a vision of Hell, can we now be certain that there are human souls in Hell?"

 

[hawkeye]

" With the Church’s approval of the Fatima appearances, during which the Blessed Mother showed the three children a vision of Hell, can we now be certain that there are human souls in Hell?"

Unless your assuming that it is possible for a sinless person to tell an untruth, then there are definately human souls in hell.

 

[Charles]

It is probably safe to assume there are souls in Hell. Even before Fatima Christ at least implied as much in some of his parables. It is not safe, however, to assume which souls reside there. God alone knows our state. There are probably people whose, life would lead us to believe they are in hell, who reside in Heaven, and vice versa. The Church has never categorically stated that a specific person is in hell, to the best of my knowledge (and with the possible exception of Nero?).

 

[Apologia100]

Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and *those who enter by it are * many.” The words of God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ. If you don’t believe God that people are in Hell, then you must believe that God is a liar, which would make you an infidel, BTW. You can’t believe in the inerrancy of God and be considered a believer at the same time.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

While it’s certainly probable that there are human souls in Heaven, the fact is that the Church has never said that we know that this is the case.

In addition, there are a number of places in the Church’s liturgy where it prays for all of the departed, which makes little sense if we knew that some of the departed were damned. (Cf., for example, the closing prayer from the Liturgy of the Hours for All Souls Day: “… strengthen our hope that all our departed brothers and sisters will share in His resurrection…” [emphasis added].)

NB: I’m not espousing universalism: I’m not saying that all people will be saved. I’m simply saying that we do not know with certitude that all won’t be saved.

 

[Southernrich]

Chris Burgwald:

I’m not saying that all people will be saved. I’m simply saying that we do not know with certitude that all won’t be saved.

We do know with certainty that some will not be saved, we just can’t know who those persons might be. Matthew 7:13, Matthew 25:31-46, Rev 21:8

 

[Erich]

Chris Burgwald:

While it’s certainly probable that there are human souls in Heaven, the fact is that the Church has never said that we know that this is the case.

Hmm, I thought this was precisely what the Church was saying when it canonizes saints?

 

[Southernrich]

Erich:

Hmm, I thought this was precisely what the Church was saying when it canonizes saints?

You’ve got it. That is exactly what the Church says when it canonizes an individual.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

Erich:

Hmm, I thought this was precisely what the Church was saying when it canonizes saints?

Oops. I meant we don’t know that there are human souls in Hell… you’re exactly right that we know there are souls in Heaven.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

Southernrich:

We do know with certainty that some will not be saved, we just can’t know who those persons might be. Matthew 7:13, Matthew 25:31-46, Rev 21:8

While it’s certainly possible to read those texts that way, they’re have been orthodox thinkers who have read them as salutary warnings. In addition, the Church has yet to indicate that this is the way to read those texts. And I think examples from the liturgy as the one I referenced at least allow for an alternative reading.

(In general, my stance is that of Hans Urs von Balthasar’s, as found in his book Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved”?)

 

[Southernrich]

Chris Burgwald:

Oops. I meant we don’t know that there are human souls in Hell… you’re exactly right that we know there are souls in Heaven.

And we know that there are human souls in Hell per the Scriptures.

 

[Southernrich]

Chris Burgwald:

In addition, the Church has yet to indicate that this is the way to read those texts.

The Church rarely interprets Scripture, and those verses are pretty straightforward.

And I think examples from the liturgy as the one I referenced at least allow for an alternative reading.

Sorry, but a liturgical prayer is never the equivalent of Scripture.

(In general, my stance is that of Hans Urs von Balthasar’s, as found in his book Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved”?)

Rejected by most, and specifically rejected by Regis Scanlon and Richard Neuhaus.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

Southernrich:

Sorry, but a liturgical prayer is never the equivalent of Scripture.

It’s in the liturgy that the belief of the Church is expressed in a lived manner.

Southernrich:

Rejected by most,

I beg to differ

Southernrich:

and specifically rejected by Regis Scanlon and Richard Neuhaus.

Fr. Scanlon has done so, but Fr. Neuhaus supports von B’s view, and is well-known for having done so, in light of the fact that he came to von B’s defense against Fr. Scanlon and then Dale Vree.

Avery Cardinal Dulles well-summarizes the whole question in his article The Population of Hell, found here: firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0305/articles/dulles.html

In that article, he states his view:

This position of Balthasar seems to me to be orthodox. It does not contradict any ecumenical councils or definitions of the faith. It can be reconciled with everything in Scripture, at least if the statements of Jesus on hell are taken as minatory rather than predictive. Balthasar’s position, moreover, does not undermine a healthy fear of being lost.

He also presents something from a Wednesday Audience catechesis from JPII:

Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.

Of course, von B and those who agree with him may be wrong, but are not heterodox in their view on the question (which is all I ask most people acknowledge). The view that most of humanity is damned can be found in the thought of many saints and theologians… but I disagree, in favor of other saints and theologians.

 

[fix]

He also presents something from a Wednesday Audience catechesis from JPII:

Quote:
Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it.
I have read that the quote attributed to the Pope is mistranslated. He did not say “whether”.

My reading is that only in very recent times has anyone claimed that there are no human souls in hell. I think Jimmy Akin has a good tract on it. This very site contains that tract I believe.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

fix:

My reading is that only in very recent times has anyone claimed that there are no human souls in hell. I think Jimmy Akin has a good tract on it. This very site contains that tract I believe.

There is an important distinction between the assertion that there are no human souls in hell and the assertion that we do not know if there are any human souls in hell; von B et al hold only the latter, not the former.

As far as the “age” of the thesis, von B discusses some early Fathers who hold something like it, and Dulles references some Fathers in the article I linked.

I know that Jimmy Akin disagrees with this thesis, and I believe Karl Keating does as well. And that’s fine… both positions are allowable within the pale of Catholic orthodoxy. This is one of those “fun” areas where we can disagree, and even vehemently so, while acknowledging that neither position is anathema. (In that way, it’s like the Dominican-Jesuit controversies over grace & free will in the late 16th and early 17th centuries.)

 

[fix]

Yes, we can and do disagree in this matter. Have you read that the Pope was mistranslated in the quote you offerred?

 

[Southernrich]

Chris Burgwald:

It’s in the liturgy that the belief of the Church is expressed in a lived manner…

The fact remains. A liturgical prayer is not the equivalent of Scripture.

 

[Southernrich]

Chris Burgwald:

This is one of those “fun” areas where we can disagree, and even vehemently so, while acknowledging that neither position is anathema. (In that way, it’s like the Dominican-Jesuit controversies over grace & free will in the late 16th and early 17th centuries.)

Okay, I see. It’s like those medievalists trying to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[larryo]

Holy Scripture is very clear about the existence of hell. In fact, the person who speaks of hell (Gehenna) most often in the Bible is Jesus Christ. Like Balthasar, we may hope that everyone ends up in heaven and, therefore should pray for all dead souls. However, in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Our Lord definitely describes the rich man as having gone to hell. It’s true that the Church makes no judgments about specific individuals choosing to go to hell, but it’s very reasonable to conclude that many souls who die unrepentant do in fact go to hell. Sections 1033, 1861, 1034, 1035. 633, 1036, and 1037 set forth the Church’s teaching on the doctrine of hell. The bootom line for each of us is that hell is real and we should do everything to avoid ending up there.

 

[Southernrich]

larryo:

Sections 1033, 1861, 1034, 1035. 633, 1036, and 1037 set forth the Church’s teaching on the doctrine of hell.

The Church teaches that there is the Particular Judgment when we die and then the Final Judgment when Christ returns.

The Church also teaches that dying in the state of mortal sin damns one.

Certainly, many die in the state of mortal sin. As they are judged immediately at the Particular Judgment, where else would they be except in Hell? I’ve never hear of any “holding pens” waiting on the Final Judgment or of God allowing one to repent after death (something some people actually think will happen).

If Chris means that we can’t know with ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE what occurs to a particular individual after his death, then Chris is correct in his hypothesis.

But, we certainly have a “moral assurance” that some people have died in a state of mortal sin, and have been damned.