Speaking in Tongues

[Keith_Strohm]

The Vatican has no authoritative views estbalished for UFOs, crop circles, or the Sedona Vortexes. That does not mean they can be unilaterally assimilated into Catholic practice because some folks find merit in them.

No, but tongues and the other charismata are a part of written and oral Tradition in the Church–not made up out of whole cloth.

Nonsense. The thread is about “tongues” in the Anglo-American charismatic movement. That the Corinthians of Paul’s time did or didn’t overdo it has nothing to with charismatics folks in the US in 2006 claiming God is speaking through them on a weekly basis.

So, you don’t see how a manifestation of the Spirit mentioned in scripture has anything to do with manifestations of the Spirit ocurring in 2006? We should just observe this contemporary manifestation without any reference to the early Church in which this manifestation previously occured?

That doesn’t make any sense.

The Church requires positive evidence and authoritative evaluation of spiritual manifestations and miraculous occurances. If people in significant numbers are claiming that God is directly causing them to exhibit glossolalia, its not different than any other spiritual manifestation, and it is not unreasonable to expect the Church to formally investigate and judge the claim.

Yet in the case of many Marian apparitions, the Church allowed (and sometimes even encouraged) pilgrimages and devotions before any definitive ruling was made.

In any given parish in any given Diocese healings, prophetic words, and miraculous occurrences are happening. The Church (full on Vatican investigation) can’t investigate and rule on each and every one of them. They need to be discerned carefully by the pastor (and those to whom he has delegated some of his pastoral duties).

I’m not suggesting that we just accept somebody’s word that he has a gift of healing or prophecy–and I believe that is one of the issues with the Charismatic Movement. I’m not necessarily a fan of the CM.

As for other “charisms”, if someone shows up at Sunday Mass and starts making prophecies or claims to be a miraculous healer, I’ll be on his case too.

They may not show up during Sunday mass, but chances are they are there in your parish. I know you are focusing on tongues here, but I also get the feeling that you reject the notion that charisms exist at all–that God chooses to use His people in miraculous ways to accomplish His work of Salvation.

However, church teaching is clear that charisms (like healing, propecy, encouragement, etc) *do *exist, *are *received at Baptism, and *are *an indispensible part of the Christian life. If you are baptized, God has given you charismata.

To deny that is to deny Church teaching.

Frankly, I think the charismatic movement is a huge step backwards for the Church. What began some years ago as in the desire for some to exhibit more enthusiam in their devotion has developed into a ideologic movement within the Church drawing much of its guidance from Protestant Fundamentalism. Couple this with the wide-spread liturgical break-downs and fuzzy theology, and we have a recipe for disaster in the American Church.

I’m not necessarily in disagreement with you here. I have some reservations about the Charismatic Movement myself. I’m just not ready to throw out the charisms–including tongues–just because of my issues with a particular group.

Keith

 

[DWPC]

I’m not necessarily in disagreement with you here. I have some reservations about the Charismatic Movement myself. I’m just not ready to throw out the charisms–including tongues–just because of my issues with a particular group.
Keith

I’m not discounting charisms, just how they’re manifested. And perhaps the narrow definition that’s used in dialogs on charsimatics. A charism is simply a gift from God, and isn’t limited to the mystical few usually named in charismatic debate. Mother Theresa certainly had a particularlty strong charism for unconditional love. There are charisms for leadership, for courage, for insight. Perhaps Mozart demonstrated a musical charism.

While God works in all of us, I think its, at best, simplistic to see God’s hand in the mundane and trivial. A true story that is an example: I once had a Fundamentalist receptionist whose car had a flat tire at lunch time. She prayed deeply over it (she prayed about everything). When two guys from the Shipping Dept. fixed it, she was certain Jesus had intervened. But by insisting that God answered *her *prayer, she was effectively denying the charitible intent of the Good Samaritans. She saw everything as between *her *and God, and that effectively blinded her to the good in others.

If every charismatic experience were to be believed, scriptural charisms would be occuring all *over *the place. If this were so, wouldn’t the Church be overtly obstructionist in not recognizing a situation that would certainly result in mass conversions to Catholicism and the saving of many souls? For that matter, if these manifestations were truly so common, they’d be overwhelming us and even secular interests would be jumping all over them.

 

[Keith_Strohm]

I’m not discounting charisms, just how they’re manifested. And perhaps the narrow definition that’s used in dialogs on charsimatics. A charism is simply a gift from God, and isn’t limited to the mystical few usually named in charismatic debate. Mother Theresa certainly had a particularlty strong charism for unconditional love. There are charisms for leadership, for courage, for insight. Perhaps Mozart demonstrated a musical charism.

While God works in all of us, I think its, at best, simplistic to see God’s hand in the mundane and trivial. A true story that is an example: I once had a Fundamentalist receptionist whose car had a flat tire at lunch time. She prayed deeply over it (she prayed about everything). When two guys from the Shipping Dept. fixed it, she was certain Jesus had intervened. But by insisting that God answered *her *prayer, she was effectively denying the charitible intent of the Good Samaritans. She saw everything as between *her *and God, and that effectively blinded her to the good in others.

If every charismatic experience were to be believed, scriptural charisms would be occuring all *over *the place. If this were so, wouldn’t the Church be overtly obstructionist in not recognizing a situation that would certainly result in mass conversions to Catholicism and the saving of many souls? For that matter, if these manifestations were truly so common, they’d be overwhelming us and even secular interests would be jumping all over them.

I agree quite a bit with what you say! There are many charisms, like leadership, music, mercy–that aren’t flashy! They exist in the same way that the “flashier” ones do.

But the “flashier” ones are also out there. They exist in every diocese in the world. But Christ himself walked the earth and still most pople didn’t believe Him.

The existence of these charisms and the willingness to place them at the forefront of ministry to the world might be a partial explanation as to why Pentecostalism is one of the fastest growing denominations in the world–sweeping through traditionally catholic areas like South America.

And I agree that we need baalance–not everything is a spiritual manifestation–and the whole of our walk cannot be charism-based. We received the sacraments for a reason, as well.

In any event, I have enjoyed this thread and I wish you many blessings this Advent season.

Your brother in Christ,

Keith

 

[Michael_Welter]

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You know Michael Welter—even in what you wrote above—there is an implication that those of us who do not believe in the tongue movement are not praising God the way He truly deserves. We are not giving ourselves over to God–so therefore he does not speak through us.

I didn’t intend to give that impression. I was speaking strictly for myself. I am unable to praise God as He truly deserves. That may, or may no, be true of others as well. For others, the gift of tongues may be what they need. For others, the Holy Spirit may give other ways to praise God as He truly deserves.

 

[Michael_Welter]

To what end does God “speak through” you? To help the poor? To comfort the suffering? To promote justice for the weak?

My gift of tongues is used for prayer to God, such as intercession. It draws me closer to God, and strengthens me as a christian. Ultimately, it aids me in being better prepared to serve others.

Did Christ pray to His Father in “tongues”?

I don’t know.

Didn’t He give us the Lord’s Prayer?

Yes, of course He did.

Though God gave us the profoundly unique gifts of intellect and language, He “moves” us to make unintelligible noises at Him?

The gift of tongues is not unintelligible to Him.

If He touches us through such direct means, why bother with the Mass and Holy Eucharist?

The Mass is our highest form of communal worship, and the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. These are critical for every Catholic. The gift of tongues is not critical for any Catholic.

Nothing personal, MW, I realize you hold a strong position.

Not to worry. We’re brethren in Christ, and our disagreement here doesn’t diminish that. There is far more that we agree on.