Speedy Masses?!?

[twopekinguys]

That key in the tabernacle not only makes the tabernacle unsecured it also screams “expediency before security!” In other words “God just isn’t worth the extra time or effort.”

In your opinion.

As has been pointed out numerous times, there is no set guideline for this.

To quote you, “That’s just silly. Your concern is ridiculous – you’re just trying to discredit something you do not like. And you failed miserably”

The wrist band has nothing to do with jogging. That’s just a rude/nasty remark. The only reason I realized what it was (it’s black and not noticeable) was because I saw the priest put it on in the sacristy. And no, a key would not “slip out.” That’s just silly. Your concern is ridiculous – you’re just trying to discredit something you do not like. And you failed miserably.

Is there some sort of guarantee that comes with the wristband that says a key won’t slip out? It does happen, and can happen. When and if it does, you then have the key to the Tabernacle in an unknown location, giving anyone access to the Tabernacle.

Again, at least with the key in the lock of the Tabernacle, it wouldn’t be subject to being dropped on the floor during the procession, or the opening prayers, or the Liturgy of the Word.

How reverent do you think it would be for the celebrant to lose the key from a sweatband on his wrist, and have to ask the servers, and the congregation to start looking for it on the floor?

Again, to use your own words, " you’re just trying to discredit something you do not like. And you failed miserably".

 

[boatbearer]

It’s pretty remarkable how defensive some will get about a clearly unacceptable practice like leaving the key in the tabernacle. It’s equally remarkable about how far they will go to try and justify whatever practice they are using in place of doing things right per the Church.

 

[boatbearer]

In your opinion.

As has been pointed out numerous times, there is no set guideline for this.

To quote you, “That’s just silly. Your concern is ridiculous – you’re just trying to discredit something you do not like. And you failed miserably”

Is there some sort of guarantee that comes with the wristband that says a key won’t slip out? It does happen, and can happen. When and if it does, you then have the key to the Tabernacle in an unknown location, giving anyone access to the Tabernacle.

Again, at least with the key in the lock of the Tabernacle, it wouldn’t be subject to being dropped on the floor during the procession, or the opening prayers, or the Liturgy of the Word.

How reverent do you think it would be for the celebrant to lose the key from a sweatband on his wrist, and have to ask the servers, and the congregation to start looking for it on the floor?

Again, to use your own words, " you’re just trying to discredit something you do not like. And you failed miserably".

Just follow Canon Law:

938 § 3: “The tabernacle in which the Most Holy Eucharist is reserved habitually is to be immovable, made of solid and opaque material, and locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is avoided as much as possible.”

Or maybe you prefer the current GIRM:

GIRM 314. "In accordance with the structure of each church and legitimate local customs, the Most Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in a tabernacle in a part of the church that is truly noble, prominent, readily visible, beautifully decorated, and suitable for prayer.

The one tabernacle should be immovable, be made of solid and inviolable material that is not transparent, and be locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is prevented to the greatest extent possible. Moreover, it is appropriate that, before it is put into liturgical use, it be blessed according to the rite described in the Roman Ritual."

There’s your formal guidelines. Deal with it. You really cannot admit that you are wrong, can you? You try to brew-up some ludicrous hypothetical in the hopes of discrediting me? Stop already.

If you cannot come up with a way for a priest to keep the tabernacle key on his person where it will be readily and securely available then you’re simply showing your own limitations. The wristband was one excellent solution I saw. There are certainly others although I doubt you would be able to come up with any given the comments you have posted on this thread.

Few things say irreverence like a key left in the tabernacle.

No wonder there’s so much confusion in parishes. Even with crystal clear direction people still feel the need to dig in and fight against what they do not personally agree with – or understand…

 

[twopekinguys]

Just follow Canon Law:

938 § 3: “The tabernacle in which the Most Holy Eucharist is reserved habitually is to be immovable, made of solid and opaque material, and locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is avoided as much as possible.”

There’s the formal guideline. Deal with it. You really cannot admit that you are wrong, can you? You try to brew-up some ludicrous hypothetical in the hopes of discrediting me? Stop already.

If you cannot come up with a way for a priest to keep the tabernacle key on his person where it will be readily and securely available then you’re simply showing your own limitations. The wristband was one excellent solution I saw. There are certainly others although I doubt you would be able to come up with any given the comments you have posted on this thread.

Few things say irreverence like a key left in the tabernacle.

LOL, you are just too funny.

Show me in the formal guideline that you are using that says the key cannot be in the lock of the Tabernacle. I’ll help you out. It doesn’t.

Leaving the key in an obscure location, like you have suggested, including a “sweatband”, puts the Tabernacle (and Jesus) at greater risk than a key in the lock in front of the entire congregation.

The key can fall out of the sweatband. Putting the key in one of his pockets, and having to dig through his vestments isn’t feasible. Wearing it around his neck under his chasuble isn’t feasible.

All of these have been your suggestions, and really do nothing to support your case.

Since the Code of Canon Law does not mention specific requirements, then it is left to the best judgment of the Bishop, and the presiding Priest.

Are you saying that you know more than the Bishop? The presiding Priest?

Unfortunately, it is you that is showing limitations. Not everything in this world is black and white.

 

[boatbearer]

LOL, you are just too funny.

Show me in the formal guideline that you are using that says the key cannot be in the lock of the Tabernacle. I’ll help you out. It doesn’t.

Leaving the key in an obscure location, like you have suggested, including a “sweatband”, puts the Tabernacle (and Jesus) at greater risk than a key in the lock in front of the entire congregation.

The key can fall out of the sweatband. Putting the key in one of his pockets, and having to dig through his vestments isn’t feasible. Wearing it around his neck under his chasuble isn’t feasible.

All of these have been your suggestions, and really do nothing to support your case.

Since the Code of Canon Law does not mention specific requirements, then it is left to the best judgment of the Bishop, and the presiding Priest.

Are you saying that you know more than the Bishop? The presiding Priest?

Unfortunately, it is you that is showing limitations. Not everything in this world is black and white.

You can’t recognize defeat even after it has been shown (replete with verbatim references from the CCL and the GIRM) that your personal opinion is in error.

That’s on your. Your attempts are spin and obfuscation aren’t fooling anyone. Again, that’s on you. You have shown why there is so much liturgical discontent in so many parishes – people simply ignore the Church for their own egos. Once again on you.

Finis.

 

[benny_f]

My parish is not too bad, but I know one church where speedy masses are consistently taking place. Most people only attend this church because the masses are quick, which is even worse.

It’s as if no one enjoys going to mass anymore. They just go to be seen.

 

[twopekinguys]

You can’t recognize defeat even after it has been shown (replete with verbatim references from the CCL and the GIRM) that your personal opinion is in error.

That’s on your. Your attempts are spin and obfuscation aren’t fooling anyone. Again, that’s on you. You have shown why there is so much liturgical discontent in so many parishes – people simply ignore the Church for their own egos. Once again on you.

Finis.

I notice you did not answer the question, even though I helped you out.

I will pose the question again.

Show me in the formal guideline that you are using that says the key cannot be in the lock of the Tabernacle.

LOL, sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not the one dealing with a bruised ego. It appears to be you. But that is OK, I understand.

 

[MarkThompson]

You can’t recognize defeat even after it has been shown (replete with verbatim references from the CCL and the GIRM) that your personal opinion is in error.

Are you being serious? All you’ve provided are vague references which say nothing about any key, still less when and where it is to be kept; then you’ve drawn your own conclusions, and pretended that your conclusions are in the documents. This is no different from people who take vague references to “secular instruments” in the church’s documents about music and then shout, “Are you blind?! The documents clearly state that you cannot use guitars/drums!”

 

[boatbearer]

Are you being serious? All you’ve provided are vague references which say nothing about any key, still less when and where it is to be kept; then you’ve drawn your own conclusions, and pretended that your conclusions are in the documents. This is no different from people who take vague references to “secular instruments” in the church’s documents about music and then shout, “Are you blind?! The documents clearly state that you cannot use guitars/drums!”

Not true. A tabernacle cannot be “locked” when the key is stuck in it. Get neck deep in semantics on this one if you want but a tabernacle cannot be locked when the key is left in it.

A key left in a tabernacle also sends a horrible message to the faithful. Given that it’s prohibited though, that message is precluded from every being sent unless someone chooses to ignore Canon Law/the GIRM.

Just follow Canon Law:

938 § 3: “The tabernacle in which the Most Holy Eucharist is reserved habitually is to be immovable, made of solid and opaque material, and locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is avoided as much as possible.”

Or maybe you prefer the current GIRM:

GIRM 314. "In accordance with the structure of each church and legitimate local customs, the Most Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in a tabernacle in a part of the church that is truly noble, prominent, readily visible, beautifully decorated, and suitable for prayer.

The one tabernacle should be immovable, be made of solid and inviolable material that is not transparent, and be locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is prevented to the greatest extent possible. Moreover, it is appropriate that, before it is put into liturgical use, it be blessed according to the rite described in the Roman Ritual."

 

[ProVobis]

It’s as if no one enjoys going to mass anymore.

Perhaps they don’t understand what it is.

They just go to be seen.

Can’t brand all people that way. Some travel great distances to go to Mass because of abuses, etc in their own parish. If it’s 45 minutes instead of 50, I doubt if that in itself will discourage them.

 

[Phemie]

Not true. A tabernacle cannot be “locked” when the key is stuck in it. Get neck deep in semantics on this one if you want but a tabernacle cannot be locked when the key is left in it.

A key left in a tabernacle also sends a horrible message to the faithful. Given that it’s prohibited though, that message is precluded from every being sent unless someone chooses to ignore Canon Law/the GIRM.

Just follow Canon Law:

938 § 3: “The tabernacle in which the Most Holy Eucharist is reserved habitually is to be immovable, made of solid and opaque material, and locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is avoided as much as possible.”

Or maybe you prefer the current GIRM:

GIRM 314. "In accordance with the structure of each church and legitimate local customs, the Most Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in a tabernacle in a part of the church that is truly noble, prominent, readily visible, beautifully decorated, and suitable for prayer.

The one tabernacle should be immovable, be made of solid and inviolable material that is not transparent, and be locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is prevented to the greatest extent possible. Moreover, it is appropriate that, before it is put into liturgical use, it be blessed according to the rite described in the Roman Ritual."

With the priest standing next to the tabernacle, what danger of profanation is there during Mass?

Of course my preference would be that no one approach the tabernacle until AFTER Communion to reserve any remaining Hosts.

 

[GwenL]

…The one tabernacle should be immovable, be made of solid and inviolable material that is not transparent, and be locked in such a way that the danger of profanation is prevented to the greatest extent possible

You keep quoting this section as if the tabernacle must always stay locked. I think that anyone would realize that the tabernacle has to be unlocked at some point. At our cathedral, that point would be just prior to the Mass. During the time that it is unlocked, the priest, server, or sacristan prevent the danger of profanation with their watchful presence. The tabernacle is relocked after Mass. We are totally within the letter of the law IAW the GIRM.

Today we had adoration after daily Mass. The monstrance was on the altar with the Blessed Sacrament inside. The monstrance is not locked and it is not attached in any way to the altar. At times during adoration, there is only one worshiper in the cathedral (which is in a pretty seedy downtown area). What is to prevent profanation of the Holy Eucharist? In other words, if an unlocked tabernacle in the sanctuary peopled by a priest and servers causes an unacceptable risk of profanation, what about an unlocked, portable monstrance with nobody but a few old ladies praying?

 

[boatbearer]

You keep quoting this section as if the tabernacle must always stay locked. I think that anyone would realize that the tabernacle has to be unlocked at some point. At our cathedral, that point would be just prior to the Mass. During the time that it is unlocked, the priest, server, or sacristan prevent the danger of profanation with their watchful presence. The tabernacle is relocked after Mass. We are totally within the letter of the law IAW the GIRM.

Today we had adoration after daily Mass. The monstrance was on the altar with the Blessed Sacrament inside. The monstrance is not locked and it is not attached in any way to the altar. At times during adoration, there is only one worshiper in the cathedral (which is in a pretty seedy downtown area). What is to prevent profanation of the Holy Eucharist? In other words, if an unlocked tabernacle in the sanctuary peopled by a priest and servers causes an unacceptable risk of profanation, what about an unlocked, portable monstrance with nobody but a few old ladies praying?

The tabernacle should be unlocked as it’s being accessed and locked back up with the key removed once it has been accessed – unless of course it’s empty in the interim.

Sticking the key into the tabernacle at the beginning of Mass is really bad form. Really horrible. I think EWTN used to do that a long time ago. They also used to leave the key in after the Blessed Sacrament was reposed. They do neither now – at either the daily Mass or at the shrine from what I have seen on TV.

Amazing how these bad habits creep into the Mass and send such a terrible message to the faithful.

 

[jmcrae]

With the priest standing next to the tabernacle, what danger of profanation is there during Mass?

There are parishes where the Tabernacle is physically located in an Adoration chapel next door, or else down on the floor next to the nave, and not anywhere near where the priest is - would you say to put the key in the Tabernacle in those cases?

Of course my preference would be that no one approach the tabernacle until AFTER Communion to reserve any remaining Hosts.

That would be the ideal - and hopefully the priest or deacon would bring the key with him at that time.

 

[dconklin]

In college we had a local parish that we called St Domino’s. We used to say its tag line should be “Mass in 30 minutes or less or your salvation is free.”

The priest that married us said a daily Mass in 20 minutes. He was fast and did not leave anything out. Our wedding was over an hour and he had my wife and I kneeling pretty much the whole time. He was very old-school.

Our current parish is very big. Up to 600 people at each our six weekend Masses. Each Mass is right at an hour and very smoothly done.