Sperm Count

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LittleDeb:
In my research on NFP I found this act was one of the ones that opened the floodgates. It was exactly as was described earlier in the thread. People said, “Well how else can you harvest sperm?” So then people said “well if it was moral for medical it must be moral in general.” Society quickly followed the path of least resistance.

To the OP. If you did not know then you are not in a state of sin. Period. You might be suffering some guilt or humiliation at not knowing. That might be troubling you. Please know you are NOT at fault. That your doctor didn’t even suggest there were other options makes me question his competency.

It is up to Catholics to get the word out about the proper way to harvest sperm for analysis. I have found it to be a platform for conversations on morality.

I have also understood that it is to be a silicone perforated condom. I think a latex one causes problems with the test.
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Does anyone know for sure if using perforated condoms will contanimate the sperm for analysis? I would think that silicone or latex exposure could give a false reading, not to mention the exposure to the weather elements taking it from outside to inside and the time it takes to get it to the clinic. Does anyone know for sure if this was gives an accurate reading?
 
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Katie1723:
You are absolutely correct in expecting competance from a physician. However NO doctor knows ALL things about EVERY religion. Question his MEDICAL competance not his RELIGIOUS knowledge.
~ Kathy ~
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They sure as heck know enough to get the willies whenever a JW comes for surgery . . . The problem isn’t the doctor being ignorant, the problem is the Catholic being ignorant. We need to evangelize our SELVES!

BTW, my DH did the same thing as you did. Had reservations about it at the time but never thought that a medical test would not be an exception to the rule . . . Goes to show ya! We weren’t Catholic at the time but in the bedroom we had been “living like Catholics” for almost 10 years . . . We intuited the rightness of the Catholic position without knowing the full rationale. Grace, I guess.

So, Lighthouse – it may not have been a mortal sin for you, but sin it is because of its very nature. Confess it. Be done with it. The point that gets scrambled is that a sinful act may not be held against you because of your ignorance but it is still sinful in itself. We sometimes confuse “sin” and “culpability.”
 
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snoopy:
Does anyone know for sure if using perforated condoms will contanimate the sperm for analysis? I would think that silicone or latex exposure could give a false reading, not to mention the exposure to the weather elements taking it from outside to inside and the time it takes to get it to the clinic. Does anyone know for sure if this was gives an accurate reading?
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No, it does not contanimate the sperm. They can get just as good of reading from this as with the collection cup from masturbation. The tricky part is getting it to the lab while it is still viable. It needs to be kept under the armpit or against the body that will keep it at 98.6 degrees and must be delivered within one hour of the collection. It’s kind-of like a weird James Bond mission…have sex, keep the package safe, drive fast, and deliver the package without it blowing up. 😃
 
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dsproule:
It’s kind-of like a weird James Bond mission…have sex, keep the package safe, drive fast, and deliver the package without it blowing up. 😃
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:rotfl:
 
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Shiann:
…
It is the responsibility of the patient to advise the doctor that he or she is Catholic.

If, after the doctor knows that their patient is Catholic, they do not offer information on optional treatments or tests, I believe they are acting in an unethical manner. At the very least, they are doing a disservice to their patients…
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It is STILL the responsibility of the PATIENT to be knowledgeable of their faith…Like mercygate said and I wholeheartedly agree…"The problem isn’t the doctor being ignorant, the problem is the Catholic being ignorant. We need to evangelize our SELVES! " We hold our children responsibile for their actions,therefore we as adults need to be held accountable.
~ Kathy ~
 
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Katie1723:
It is STILL the responsibility of the PATIENT to be knowledgeable of their faith…Like mercygate said and I wholeheartedly agree…"The problem isn’t the doctor being ignorant, the problem is the Catholic being ignorant. We need to evangelize our SELVES! " We hold our children responsibile for their actions,therefore we as adults need to be held accountable.
~ Kathy ~
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Exactly!

And when that patient has made this known to the doc, the patient has a right to expect that these alternative treatments are going to be offered to them so they can make an informed consent.
 
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LighthouseRon:
A few years ago when my wife and I were trying to get pregnant, My doctor ordered a sperm count for me through masturbation. I now know that was sinful, but at the time I inncorrectly assumed it was okay because it was for the medical purpose of my aiding our fertility. Was that a mortal sin?
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There must be some other way of getting the sperm?
 
Well, ya’ll have certainly given me food for thought. I am a nurse practitioner, and I am certain that I have offered care that would be contrary to a patient’s religious beliefs. I would never do this intentionally, and I don’t consider myself incompetent. I am simply ingonrant of the teachings of the various religions of the world. I do provide the most accurate instructions on care, treatements, medications, etc., so that a patient can identify anything that would conflict with their beliefs. I will have to reflect on what has been written here.

Autumn
 
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astegallrnc:
Well, ya’ll have certainly given me food for thought. I am a nurse practitioner, and I am certain that I have offered care that would be contrary to a patient’s religious beliefs. I would never do this intentionally, and I don’t consider myself incompetent. I am simply ingonrant of the teachings of the various religions of the world. I do provide the most accurate instructions on care, treatements, medications, etc., so that a patient can identify anything that would conflict with their beliefs. I will have to reflect on what has been written here. …Autumn
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I, too, am in the medical profession. And although over the years I have learned about different cultures and what they need and want, I don’t know everything. I would do anything asked of me, but SPEAK UP! I may be ignorant of some customs and practices, but I am NOT incompetent. I had the pleasure of speaking to a physician today and I asked him if he was expected to know ALL things about ALL religions and he told me the same thing…“The patient has to accept responsibility for what his faith teaches and THEN teach the physician”
~ Kathy ~
 
…expected to know ALL things about ALL religions and he told me the same thing…“The patient has to accept responsibility for what his faith teaches and THEN teach the physician”

Kathy,

This is my feeling too. I am reflecting on what has been written, but the responsibility is primarily the patient’s. If the patient objects to some aspect of medical care, then it is the responsibility of the medical professional to reserach alternatives.

I do know that a patient can ask a question, but the answer may not provide full knowledge. For example, I have been asked “do birth control pills cause abortion?”. Well, many medical providers would answer NO based on the “medical definition” and word games, but no is not providing the patient with full knowledge. As you said, it is not possible to know everything about every culture, religion, etc.
 
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astegallrnc:
…I do know that a patient can ask a question, but the answer may not provide full knowledge. For example, I have been asked “do birth control pills cause abortion?”. Well, many medical providers would answer NO based on the “medical definition” and word games, but no is not providing the patient with full knowledge. As you said, it is not possible to know everything about every culture, religion, etc.
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I am so glad you mentioned this because this is exactly the kind of thing I meant. It is not up to the physician (or practioner) to know whose beliefs are whose. It is up to the professional to know that there ARE other beliefs. My whole point was that a doctor should have known of the other form of sperm collection. My further point was that non-Catholics would have liked to be told of it too.

When I showed my fertility specialist my NFP chart I expected him to know what it was, even if he doesn’t agree with its usage. He did know what it was, and yet still offered treatments contrary to Catholic teaching. It was up to me to know. That the treatment exists AND that the person is a specialist in the field is where the expectation of knowledge comes from.

The OP’s doctor should have told him there were other ways, regardless of his (patient’s) religious affliation. My current OB/GYN doesn’t believe NFP works. I am out to prove him wrong. (In the most polite and professional manner of course.) He still offered me contraception but my simple “nope I’m Catholic.” sufficed. I like him in every other way and we do not have an NFP only doctor in my city anyway.
 
LittleDeb,

I agree with you on some points. I will tell you that the other form of sperm collection is not standard instructions. I was not taught about the alternative condom in NP school (a Women’s Health NP program). I don’t know that I agree that the alternative sperm collection method should be discussed with each patient. I believe if the patient objects to the standard method (or any aspect of care), he should share his objection. I will not say a practitioner is incompetent for his or her failure to discuss this, I believe it is related to how we are educated in the medical field. I am not saying this is a valid excuse, but I am not sure how to meet the various needs of all patients. With that said, if a patient objects to a particular treatment for any reason it is the doctor, NP, PA, etc. job to research options. The major point you raised for me is informed consent, which is serious.

I went through infertility treatments before conceiving my son. I received treatment through a clinic owned and operated by a registered nurse. She was interested my chart. She said she was so pleased that I knew what was going on with my body. I had to also see a physician, he told me to stop WASTING my time. I was shocked, charting is usually advised.

Good luck with your OB/Gyn and NFP. I was a skeptic too until I received a NFP book. I am embarrassed to share with you how many pages of lecture notes I have on NFP. My required text wasn’t impressive either. It is effective when you receive thorough information.

Autumn
 
I would agree on many points. I did say “question his competence,” not dismiss him altogether. I would wonder if you stayed with a doctor who told you charting was a waste of time. From what you say I would guess you either educated him or went somewhere else.

The frustration I have is that the main reasons for not educating patients seems to be convenience for the doctor. In my business, sewing, though totally unrelated, I have to know everything I can. If there is something I do not know I have to say so. If I am not the person to help someone it is I who must be upfront with that. My customers expect a professional. They deserve one.

I believe the only reason that the moral form of sperm collection is ignored is because of convenience. It makes no sense to make a man come to a clinic to do something so personal and so immoral. This issue was brought up even in the 50’s. It is time that medical ethics make it standard procedure. Every single clinic I spoke to knew what it was so it makes no sense that they are not educating their patients.

I have one son and hope to have more. I am glad God is taking care of things. I am not sure there would be a good avenue for us if we sought help again. (Our son was conceived using NFP. While we didn’t force things on fertile days, charting did help.) We never had to deal with the part that the OP did. My husband has a child from a previous (invalid) marriage so our testing focused on me.

I am glad that there are medical professionals like you who do recognize a problem. I too believe it is an informed consent issue. One must be fully informed in order to give true consent.
 
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Shiann:
For a mortal sin to have occured three things must be true at the time of the sin:

You have full will to do that thing.
It is a grave matter (it is a mortal sin.)
And you have** full knowledge** of it being a grave sin.
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From the CCC: “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.”

Full knowledge does not mean one needs to know that the act is a grave sin. It means one needs know the act it is a sin. “I didn’t know that was a grave matter” doesn’t reduce culpability in and of itself. “I didn’t know that was a sin,” OTOH, does.

Of course, even then the act itself is still sinful, albeit a venial one. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is still the appropriate remedy.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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LittleDeb:
I would agree on many points. I did say “question his competence,” not dismiss him altogether. I would wonder if you stayed with a doctor who told you charting was a waste of time. From what you say I would guess you either educated him or went somewhere else.

The frustration I have is that the main reasons for not educating patients seems to be convenience for the doctor. In my business, sewing, though totally unrelated, I have to know everything I can. If there is something I do not know I have to say so. If I am not the person to help someone it is I who must be upfront with that. My customers expect a professional. They deserve one.

I believe the only reason that the moral form of sperm collection is ignored is because of convenience. It makes no sense to make a man come to a clinic to do something so personal and so immoral. This issue was brought up even in the 50’s. It is time that medical ethics make it standard procedure. Every single clinic I spoke to knew what it was so it makes no sense that they are not educating their patients.
…
I am glad that there are medical professionals like you who do recognize a problem. I too believe it is an informed consent issue. One must be fully informed in order to give true consent.
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If as a patient, you are disatisfied with the care you are receiving, it is the patients obligation to seek out another physician.
As far as sperm collection being immoral and making no sense, explain that to a couple trying desperately to have a child and therefore willing to do anything.
I still stand by the fact that PATIENTS also have to know their faith. And Doctors have to be able to refer their patients to someone who can help them, if the alternatives they present them are against what the patients faith teaches. And what is so different from you saying “in my business, sewing, though totally unrelated, I have to know everything I can. If there is something I do not know I have to say so.” and the physician not “knowing all there is to know about a faith he may not fully understand”?
~ Kathy ~
 
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LighthouseRon:
A few years ago when my wife and I were trying to get pregnant, My doctor ordered a sperm count for me through masturbation. I now know that was sinful, but at the time I inncorrectly assumed it was okay because it was for the medical purpose of my aiding our fertility. Was that a mortal sin?
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Nope, you didn’t do it knowingly… Mortal sin is a conscious sin. Masterbation is a mortal sin… Priests I talk to tell me their are circumstances that its not. Like if its habitual. Do you feel in your heart that you convicted by the Holy Spirit that it was bad at the time if not then don’t worry about it. Before I was in Christ… I masterbated a lot and I was depressed a whole string of things I felt terrible about my self. I know now when I fall I still feel terrible and I know in my heart that I need to confess. Confession is something I love to hate…
 
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dsproule:
No, it does not contanimate the sperm. They can get just as good of reading from this as with the collection cup from masturbation. The tricky part is getting it to the lab while it is still viable. It needs to be kept under the armpit or against the body that will keep it at 98.6 degrees and must be delivered within one hour of the collection. It’s kind-of like a weird James Bond mission…have sex, keep the package safe, drive fast, and deliver the package without it blowing up. 😃
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Actually I have brought this up and they said they would not accept it… that they cannot get a reliable count. What would you suggest here?
 
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