Spin-off: Would you trust the discernment of a spouse addicted to porn?

[Perian]

This is a related topic to my other post about continuing marital relations with a spouse who is genuinely addicted to pornography.

Background, for those who did not read that post: my husband is a functioning addict to pornography. He recently confessed that he has been masturbating at work and even did so at home. This problem has been ongoing since shortly before our marriage began four years ago.

This makes me think hard about the times in our marriage when I deferred to my husband’s judgement in major family decisions. I trusted his discernment when my own felt unsure because I value the concept of the husband being a spiritual leader when his wife is in the dessert or experiencing a dark night of the soul, which I was for a long time.

But, it is the case that he has been chronically in and out of a state of mortal sin for the duration of our marriage. Decisions we made that I thought were simply God calling us to difficult things-- were they actually the result of trusting the judgement of someone who deliberately committed sins which cut him off from God’s voice?

When I look seriously at my life, I see God’s mercy at work. Through the careful orchestration of circumstances, I believe God kept us on the general path of His “big picture” for our lives. And, His mercy has blasted me off my feet these past few days… It is not through my husband’s sneakiness or intelligence that he was not caught masturbating 2-4 times a week for months at his job. That was God protecting us from ruin.

But now I wonder when I can trust my husband’s truthfulness, his fidelity, or anything he does when he’s alone. When will I ever feel sure of the fruit of his prayer again?

 

[EasterJoy]

An addiction to porn, like an addiction to food, is one that does not cloud judgment on other matters in the same way as an addiction to a more severely mind-altering substance such as alcohol and drugs.

The Holy Spirit has looked after the Church through the centuries, even in spite of Popes who were notorious for their sinful failings. Likewise, the Eucharist is efficacious even when a priest says Mass whose soul is in mortal sin. Neither does God answer our prayers as some sort of blanket approval of us as human beings. On that account, I would not doubt that God does answer prayers that your husband offers that are in keeping with God’s will for him and for your family.

Of course our spiritual state matters when it comes to our ability to discern God’s will in our lives. Having said that, this does not mean that we cannot be used by God at all between the time we commit a mortal sin and when we have repented, confessed, and amended ourselves. This is even more true when someone is in the slavery of an addiction, in which wanting to change does not always result in the capacity to overcome temptation.

Your husband has not been canonized, so I hope you have always known he is prone to the biases that human frailty is heir to. It does make a difference that his character has been enslaved to an awful and unfaithful addiction, but as bad as it is try not to make it into something that erases even the good things that he manages to do and be in spite of his addiction. Do not make him and his addiction into a single inseparable entity. If you do that, just kiss your marriage goodbye.

 

[Perian]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, EasterJoy. I think for the most part you are right. God’s work is not restrained by imperfect vessels.

I think my fear is not so much about my husband’s discernment but lack of discernment. He has been pushing very hard for another child, but I don’t think it’s for the right reasons. He has agreed to wait until this time next year to try deliberately, which is an enormous weight off of my heart. I pray that this struggle with addiction will be in remission by the time we’re prayerfully considering expanding our family.

I have absolutely no intention of kissing my marriage goodbye, no matter what happens. We’re both in it for the long haul, even if that means shipping him off to rehab to dry out

 

[Trident_H]

Perian, I said I wouldn’t post anymore in your other thread. And in this thread I think EasterJoy is the one to look to in the advice department. All I want to say is that I’m really sorry for what you’re going through. I wish I could make things better for you. I’m really sorry because I’m seeing my ex-wife’s pain through your eyes. I was not a porn addict, but had other related problems. Our marriage would probably have survived all that if I’d just been honest from the beginning. But I mean what I want to say is that I’m sorry for your hurt. I feel it really close to my heart. And I’m sorry I can’t give you good advice. I’m trying to learn not to talk so much without thinking it through. I mean I better stop this post soon before I make this about me again. EasterJoy knows I do this. It’s a thing I have to work on.

Anyway I just want to say I hope you get through this. And don’t give up hope. I feel for you. A lot. Please take care of yourself. I wish there was more I could do.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[pensmama87]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, EasterJoy. I think for the most part you are right. God’s work is not restrained by imperfect vessels.

I think my fear is not so much about my husband’s discernment but lack of discernment. He has been pushing very hard for another child, but I don’t think it’s for the right reasons. He has agreed to wait until this time next year to try deliberately, which is an enormous weight off of my heart. I pray that this struggle with addiction will be in remission by the time we’re prayerfully considering expanding our family.

I have absolutely no intention of kissing my marriage goodbye, no matter what happens. We’re both in it for the long haul, even if that means shipping him off to rehab to dry out

Yes, I think adding another child in right now would be very difficult on you and your husband’s recovery.

I mostly agree with EasterJoy’s post. The one thing that concerns me in particular is that your husband has been doing this at work. If he’s the breadwinner for the family, that shows that the addiction already has such a strong hold on him that he’s willing to put you and your children at risk to service the addiction. That is very worrisome, and it does, to some extent, make me question your definition of him as a “functioning” addict. It may not stay that way for long, unfortunately.

 

[alphawoman]

I would say it would depend heavily on in what area that “discernment” is taking place.

I recall from your other thread you expressing deep concern about him risking losing his job through masturbation at work. You also seemed to have personally discerned that now is not the right time for you to have another child given your family’s current circumstances.

On the children front, I would say you must trust your own instincts. Your spouse has caused you significant anxiety and hurt. You shared that, before you last became pregnant after conceding to have sex reluctantly during your fertile period, you were about to receive counselling regarding apprehension of having another child at this time. You have very valid reasons to wait, and I think it is prudent to do so.

If you feel comfortable, would you be open to discussing your husband’s arguments for having another child now? My own husband has been (less urgently) talking about having another child since shortly after his habit was “outed”, and my best read is that, while he would genuinely enjoy another child at some point, his request is largely a cry for approval from me and an attempt to solidify our commitment to a shared future. I am open to the possibility of more children eventually but, IMO, my husband’s motivations aren’t the right ones for bringing another child into our family right now.

I would urge you to spend some time honestly reflecting on your hopes and fears, and let your instincts be the guiding ones for family planning decisions.

 

[Perian]

I would say it would depend heavily on in what area that “discernment” is taking place.

I recall from your other thread you expressing deep concern about him risking losing his job through masturbation at work. You also seemed to have personally discerned that now is not the right time for you to have another child given your family’s current circumstances.

On the children front, I would say you must trust your own instincts. Your spouse has caused you significant anxiety and hurt. You shared that, before you last became pregnant after conceding to have sex reluctantly during your fertile period, you were about to receive counselling regarding apprehension of having another child at this time. You have very valid reasons to wait, and I think it is prudent to do so.

If you feel comfortable, would you be open to discussing your husband’s arguments for having another child now? My own husband has been (less urgently) talking about having another child since shortly after his habit was “outed”, and my best read is that, while he would genuinely enjoy another child at some point, his request is largely a cry for approval from me and an attempt to solidify our commitment to a shared future. I am open to the possibility of more children eventually but, IMO, my husband’s motivations aren’t the right ones for bringing another child into our family right now.

I would urge you to spend some time honestly reflecting on your hopes and fears, and let your instincts be the guiding ones for family planning decisions.

The reasons he gave me were somewhat vague or not that important, and all of them had an undertone of urgency.

He said he wanted our daughter to have a sibling close in age. He was hung up on her having a sibling before she turned three. Something about the number three was just a source of anxiety for him. That’s the main one that sticks in my mind because the rest were just… Non-issues or kind of incoherent. You know how you have a hard time remembering the details of what someone says when it makes no sense? It’s kind of like that. Now that we reached a place of mutual peace about this, thanks to him finally hearing me and trusting that I mean it when I say I will be open to more children, it has taken a back seat and we haven’t spoken about it again.

I think what he was actually craving was a positive event that would be as emotionally stimulating as the subject matter of his addiction. He feels muddled in the sameness of daily life and wants something to plan for, look forward to… Boredom, anticipation, focus, satisfaction… Sounds like the familiar cycle of emotions that go into seeking out a fix, doesn’t it?

I really do believe he was trying to use a pregnancy as another emotional stimulant-- a temporary cure for his inability to appreciate the small joys of REAL life.

 

[jmjZelie]

Is he perhaps pushing for another baby right now because he sees sexual relations seeking conception of a child is a healthy perspective, and he is seizing upon the wholesomeness of that as a way to atone for his sins of unfaithfulness? Also maybe because he thinks he would be physically capable of the marital act if he had that as a hoped-for outcome?

You don’t have to answer any of these questions here, btw. Just questions to ponder.

I think that discernment in this area probably needs to defer to you, because of his addiction. I don’t see him as a functioning addict. Your description is of a man who very nearly lost it all due to his addiction, but was mercifully “arrested” before anything tragic happened. You have expressed serious reservations about another pregnancy right now, and have even wondered if it is appropriate at this time to continue conjugal relations. Therefore, it would seem logical that purposefully conceiving a child would be a decision to delay until these more pressing matters are addressed.

So, no, to directly answer your title question, I would not trust the discernment of a spouse addicted to porn and masturbation regarding the use of marriage and the timing of a new pregnancy.

Edited to add: oh I see you addressed his motivations in a reply you posted while I was writing my post. But i hope the rest of my post here is helpful.

 

[Perian]

Perian, I said I wouldn’t post anymore in your other thread. And in this thread I think EasterJoy is the one to look to in the advice department. All I want to say is that I’m really sorry for what you’re going through. I wish I could make things better for you. I’m really sorry because I’m seeing my ex-wife’s pain through your eyes. I was not a porn addict, but had other related problems. Our marriage would probably have survived all that if I’d just been honest from the beginning. But I mean what I want to say is that I’m sorry for your hurt. I feel it really close to my heart. And I’m sorry I can’t give you good advice. I’m trying to learn not to talk so much without thinking it through. I mean I better stop this post soon before I make this about me again. EasterJoy knows I do this. It’s a thing I have to work on.

Anyway I just want to say I hope you get through this. And don’t give up hope. I feel for you. A lot. Please take care of yourself. I wish there was more I could do.

Peace.

-Trident

I truly appreciate your responses and what you have shared. I have never seen anyone so quick to contrition and full of compassion on a forum of any kind and I commend your humility and feeling. Thank you so much for your prayers and empathy. I don’t discredit the value of your suffering as well. Just because you were on the other side does not mean you have not also sustained wounds. I will pray for you and your continued healing, both in health and in your relationships. Thank you for your kind, generous words.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, EasterJoy. I think for the most part you are right. God’s work is not restrained by imperfect vessels.

I think my fear is not so much about my husband’s discernment but lack of discernment. He has been pushing very hard for another child, but I don’t think it’s for the right reasons. He has agreed to wait until this time next year to try deliberately, which is an enormous weight off of my heart. I pray that this struggle with addiction will be in remission by the time we’re prayerfully considering expanding our family.

I have absolutely no intention of kissing my marriage goodbye, no matter what happens. We’re both in it for the long haul, even if that means shipping him off to rehab to dry out

You need to decide with your husband if you have a serious need to avoid having another child. It has to be a joint decision. Whatever you do, keep trying until you are of one mind. May the Lord be with you and give you both his peace.

 

[Trident_H]

I truly appreciate your responses and what you have shared. I have never seen anyone so quick to contrition and full of compassion on a forum of any kind and I commend your humility and feeling. Thank you so much for your prayers and empathy. I don’t discredit the value of your suffering as well. Just because you were on the other side does not mean you have not also sustained wounds. I will pray for you and your continued healing, both in health and in your relationships. Thank you for your kind, generous words.

Thanks for that Perian. Thanks so much. I will try to pray for you. I’m praying for four other things on this forum so I’m going to put your needs in there too. I’m not a prayer warrior or anything. I’m not even in a state of grace. But I’m working on that. But I mean I’m going to do it anyway. Just in case it can make a difference. You are such a good person. I don’t know what else to do.

Peace Perian.

-Trident

 

[Xantippe]

An addiction to porn, like an addiction to food, is one that does not cloud judgment on other matters in the same way as an addiction to a more severely mind-altering substance such as alcohol and drugs.

But there is the masturbating at work thing.

It’s affecting his judgment enough that he either doesn’t know or doesn’t care that he is going to lose his job if anybody walks in on him.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, I think adding another child in right now would be very difficult on you and your husband’s recovery.

I mostly agree with EasterJoy’s post. The one thing that concerns me in particular is that your husband has been doing this at work. If he’s the breadwinner for the family, that shows that the addiction already has such a strong hold on him that he’s willing to put you and your children at risk to service the addiction. That is very worrisome, and it does, to some extent, make me question your definition of him as a “functioning” addict. It may not stay that way for long, unfortunately.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

I think that discernment in this area probably needs to defer to you, because of his addiction. I don’t see him as a functioning addict. Your description is of a man who very nearly lost it all due to his addiction, but was mercifully “arrested” before anything tragic happened. You have expressed serious reservations about another pregnancy right now, and have even wondered if it is appropriate at this time to continue conjugal relations. Therefore, it would seem logical that purposefully conceiving a child would be a decision to delay until these more pressing matters are addressed.

So, no, to directly answer your title question, I would not trust the discernment of a spouse addicted to porn and masturbation regarding the use of marriage and the timing of a new pregnancy.

Yes.

I’d add that there are often surprises with pregnancy.

With previous pregnancies, we’d gotten used to the idea that pregnancy is happy fun no-abstinence time. Well, with my last pregnancy, I had bleeding episodes with a subchorionic hematoma, and my OB/GYN benched me for nearly my whole 2nd trimester (and it could easily have gone longer).

 

[Trident_H]

But there is the masturbating at work thing.

It’s affecting his judgment enough that he either doesn’t know or doesn’t care that he is going to lose his job if anybody walks in on him.

It might depend on if this is a thing he does in a private bathroom. Or a public bathroom? Or in his office? Or in his cubical? I don’t know. I think it really depends on if this is attached to some kind of ‘thrill of not getting caught’ thing or if it’s in a place where he could never really get caught. That would make a big difference in my mind.

I mean a really bad analogy would be like a smoker trying to sneak a cigarette in the men’s room instead of trying not to get caught smoking in the lunch room. Sort of. Like I say, it’s not a great analogy.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t want to think too hard about this, but yeah, there are certainly better and worse versions.

It might depend on if this is a thing he does in a private bathroom. Or a public bathroom? Or in his office? Or in his cubical? I don’t know. I think it really depends on if this is attached to some kind of ‘thrill of not getting caught’ thing or if it’s in a place where he could never really get caught. That would make a big difference in my mind.

I mean a really bad analogy would be like a smoker trying to sneak a cigarette in the men’s room instead of trying not to get caught smoking in the lunch room. Sort of. Like I say, it’s not a great analogy.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Allegra]

I don’t want to think too hard about this, but yeah, there are certainly better and worse versions.

Either way, it’s dangerous. My stepfather has actually lost two jobs because of smoking in the bathroom, and he still continues to try to do it. Even if the OP’s husband has access to a private bathroom, it doesn’t look good for an employee to disappear for really long or frequent bathroom breaks. Plus, it’s a slippery slope. When it gets to a point where a porn addict can’t make it through the work day, end up doing this is public restrooms on the way home. The relative of mine that is a porn addict lied to his wife for seven years about what time he started work. Every morning he would go to a park in order to masturbate in his truck. Getting caught doing that would have put him on a sex registry.

 

[Trident_H]

Either way, it’s dangerous. My stepfather has actually lost two jobs because of smoking in the bathroom, and he still continues to try to do it. Even if the OP’s husband has access to a private bathroom, it doesn’t look good for an employee to disappear for really long or frequent bathroom breaks. Plus, it’s a slippery slope. When it gets to a point where a porn addict can’t make it through the work day, end up doing this is public restrooms on the way home. The relative of mine that is a porn addict lied to his wife for seven years about what time he started work. Every morning he would go to a park in order to masturbate in his truck. Getting caught doing that would have put him on a sex registry.

Good point.

 

[Allegra]

This is a related topic to my other post about continuing marital relations with a spouse who is genuinely addicted to pornography.

Background, for those who did not read that post: my husband is a functioning addict to pornography. He recently confessed that he has been masturbating at work and even did so at home. This problem has been ongoing since shortly before our marriage began four years ago.

This makes me think hard about the times in our marriage when I deferred to my husband’s judgement in major family decisions. I trusted his discernment when my own felt unsure because I value the concept of the husband being a spiritual leader when his wife is in the dessert or experiencing a dark night of the soul, which I was for a long time.

But, it is the case that he has been chronically in and out of a state of mortal sin for the duration of our marriage. Decisions we made that I thought were simply God calling us to difficult things-- were they actually the result of trusting the judgement of someone who deliberately committed sins which cut him off from God’s voice?

When I look seriously at my life, I see God’s mercy at work. Through the careful orchestration of circumstances, I believe God kept us on the general path of His “big picture” for our lives. And, His mercy has blasted me off my feet these past few days… It is not through my husband’s sneakiness or intelligence that he was not caught masturbating 2-4 times a week for months at his job. That was God protecting us from ruin.

But now I wonder when I can trust my husband’s truthfulness, his fidelity, or anything he does when he’s alone. When will I ever feel sure of the fruit of his prayer again?

God always hears our prayers, even the prayers of an addict. As far as trusting his discernment, I think you can trust it to the extent that the addiction isn’t part of the issue. He is going to be apt to downplay and outright lie about the extent the addiction effects your lives, so if the issue you are attempting to discern involves the addiction, then take his opinion with a grain of salt. However, if it’s a decision that doesn’t really involve the addiction, then I think you can trust his discernment on other matters.

As far as having more children goes, I think you are right to be concerned about having another baby right now when his recovery is so sketchy. He may have some good reasons for wanting to go ahead (having kids close in age), but he is likely to dismiss or downplay the issues he is facing when he’s been acting out at work.

 

[Cmc1972]

From a males perspective.

When I was a a teenager, it was easy to avoid porn.

No internet.

You had to buy a magazine or a vhs. Too difficult.

Nowadays, all one needs is a phone.

It is insane how easy it is to get addicted to porn.

For a lot of men, it is a lifelong commitment to avoid porn.

Be open and talk to him daily about it.

I know for me being honest with me wife and mAking a real effort to stop viewing porn and masturbating has been a huge plus.

I pray daily to avoid all filth and I very very rarely do either one.

I am there for my wife and she is there for me.

Pray together and stay committed.

It will work out.