Spiritual/Vocational Guidance

[MusicMan]

Hey gang, I’m looking for some guidance on a matter of vocations and spirituality.

I am a cradle Latin Rite Catholic. I was an altar boy in grade school, and that continued into my high school years too. I had a strong aptitude for music, and piano lessons were soon supplemented by organ lessons. The local Catholic and mainline Protestant churches gave me lots of organist work in high school.

My name was recommended by a member of the congregation several times between 7th Grade and 12th Grade to consider the priesthood. The problem was that even though my priest did his best to follow up, my parents NEVER did, despite the fact they would have been very pleased to have a son in the priesthood.

In college, I was working as a choir director at a great Catholic Church. When my grandfather (an ELCA Lutheran) passed away, my parents designated me as the “family liason” to his pastor to help plan the funeral. After the wake, his pastor told me how much she had enjoyed working with me. She went on to say, “I call you to the ordained ministry.” My response was, “I’m flattered, but I’m in a pretty good relationship, and I’m a Catholic. Ordination isn’t a option for me.” She said, “You don’t have to stay with either.”

My “really good” relationship really wasn’t and that girl didn’t stay with me much long after Grandpa’s funeral. I spent the summer thinking about what this pastor said to me, and I started privately discerning the priesthood. I met with a priest a few times about it, but as things go, I met a new girl that year, and I discerned both vocations: married life and the priesthood.

I married that girl and I love her dearly. We’ll celebrate our fifth anniversary in three months. When I got married, the priests who knew I had been thinking about the priesthood talked to me about the Diaconate. I’m now old enough to start formation the next time the Diocese begins a new class.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, as I try to discern what God is calling me to do. Clearly, He called me to the married vocation. I also feel like He is calling me to some form of ordainted ministry. Grandpa’s pastor isn’t the only ELCA pastor who has told me they felt I had a calling – all three that I have worked for as an orgainst have felt this calling. Three priests have also felt I was being called to Orders.

Two things have prompted this request for guidance. 1.) My previous priest was very supportive of a call to the Diaconate. He was doing a lot to prepare me for formation, but sadly, I moved from that town after taking a new job. I discussed a call to the Diaconate with the priest at my new church. That was two years ago, and we’ve never developed a good relationship. I am not getting any help with discernment. 2.) I’ve thought a lot about Grandpa’s pastor’s statement, “You don’t have to stay with either.”

What if God isn’t calling me to Orders in the Catholic Church? What if all of this music ministry throughout Mainline Christianity was to prepare me for Orders in a Protestant denomination? What if my current priest’s disinterest in discernment for the Diaconate is God sending me a sign that He wants me elsewhere?

I pray about this regularly, but I am curious what the posters on this Board think. I am looking for a wide range of guidance.

 

[DIT]

I first have to say - don’t let a bad priest sway you away from your church or your calling. Some priests do not understand the permanent diaconate and thus, find it hard to foster someone down that road. You can’t lead someone towards something that you don’t understand yourself or don’t appreciate as a true order of the heirarchy of the church.

Second, your catholic. Actually, this should be the first point, not the second. You can’t shop your faith and find a set of beliefs that fit what you are looking for. Again, you’re catholic and if you believe what the catholic faith is all about, there should not be any consideration of “faith shopping.”

If you think that “faith shopping” would be a good choice for you, you might want to reconsider whether you really do have a calling towards Holy Orders in the Catholic Church.

I don’t doubt that you have a calling of such inside you and that you are discouraged by what is happening. If your pastor is not much help, contact the diaconate director in your (arch)diocese. Explain the situation to him and ask him for guidance. It is his responsibility on behalf of his boss (the bishop) to help an individual discern whether a) an individual has a true call, and b) whether you are a good fit for the order of deacon.

Good luck, God Bless, and remain faithful to prayer -

 

[RobNY]

Dear Music Man,

I wish it were as easy as being able to shop to another Rite or denomination to accomodate a calling to the priesthood and marriage, but I know myself that it just feels dishonest. I’ve been wondering lately whether I’d be a fit for the priesthood, and at the same time I’m not sure if I’m strong enough to give up married life. As Latin Rite Catholics we need to make the choice.

I almost wish that we had the freedom to be married before ordination, as our Eastern brethren do, but we don’t, so it’s a moot point.

You do not have the freedom to abandon the Catholic Church, so don’t even think about it. The CC is very clear that formal heretics and schismatics are committing grave mortal sins-- and for the good of your own soul I advise you against it.

Keep discerning for the diaconate. You can’t be ordained as a priest in the Latin rite church now, but you can be a deacon. You’re calling won’t go away, Music Man. And you can’t ignore it either (well, you can try, but it won’t work too well). We can use good deacons, Music Man, and I’m sure that you’d be a good one.

I’m wondering though, from what you said about possibly leaving the Church, maybe you need some more in depth learning about Catholicism before you commit yourself? Buy a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and make sure you read it. (What I’m currently doing!) And if you have any questions about theological matters, always feel free to ask them here, because we’ll love to help you.

 

[MusicMan]

Both people who have responded to my request for guidance have given great advice from the prospective of Catholic orthodoxy.

I am looking for advice from all prospectives, however, so those of you who don’t see things from the orthodox position or even the Catholic one, please feel free.

The biggest question is, “What does God want me to do?” not necessarily, “What does the Church expect me to do?” It is possible that they aren’t synonomous, although they may very well be.

 

[RobNY]

MusicMan:

Both people who have responded to my request for guidance have given great advice from the prospective of Catholic orthodoxy.

I am looking for advice from all prospectives, however, so those of you who don’t see things from the orthodox position or even the Catholic one, please feel free.

The biggest question is, “What does God want me to do?” not necessarily, “What does the Church expect me to do?” It is possible that they aren’t synonomous, although they may very well be.

IF the Church is true then God would not lead you to a vocation in a schismatic or heretical church, being that you are already a member of the Catholic church.

To the question: What does God want me to do?

Answer: I wish I knew what God wants me to do, I’ll get back to you on that one when I have my own answer. Seriously though, you need to discern your own answer there. Good luck.

Is it possible that God is leading you to be a Protestant minister? I don’t think so. I think if that were the case, then God would be misleading you.

That people have universally recognized your aptitude to be an ordained minister of some sort is just more proof that God is calling you. But I don’t think I’ve seen the evidence that God is calling you to become a Protestant minister. Yes, the woman did think you were potentially a good candidate, but I don’t think that’s something that only Catholics can recognize. It would be like her telling you that you’re a great leader, which would be obvious in whatever religion you were a member of.

Perhaps you feel that you’d rather go for the ‘better’ vocation in the sense that a priest has more responsibilities and authority than a deacon? I’d say, be careful of deciding that you’d rather have one position because one is bigger than the other. I’m not saying that you’re consciously trying to do this, but just be careful this isn’t an unconscious factor of yours either.

 

[puzzleannie]

I would not be so blunt if you had not solicited our opinions so here goes. If you are even thinking for a moment of leaving the Catholic Church to pursue ministry in another denomination that is proof that you are not ready for the Diaconate. If I were on a team helping men discern vocations (as I was for a brief time in another diocese) I would strongly urge you to get a spiritual director and spend time on your own faith formation before you even consider the idea again. If you do not believe and accept all that the Catholic Church teaches you cannot assist others through ordained ministry, or even in teaching or catechetical ministry, until you are able to make such a profession of faith.

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

I had a friend with this same dilemma. He felt strongly called both to be a pastor and to be a husband. He applied to the diaconate, but was denied. He is now on the verge of leaving the Church–he is staying only for the sake of his wife who converted with him.

Since God is calling all people to the One True Church, I can only conclude that he is wrongly discerning the call to be a minister, especially since it is pulling him away from the church.

It must be a temptation instead. Is it an appeal to pride and vanity?

I’m also remembering that St. Therese of Liseux greatly desired to be a priest. So, the desire itself is not bad. You must subjugate your desire to the authority of the Church. Perhaps you have a special vocation to pray for priests. Perhaps you will be fostering a vocation in your children/family.

God Bless You.

 

[MusicMan]

puzzleannie:

I would not be so blunt if you had not solicited our opinions so here goes. If you are even thinking for a moment of leaving the Catholic Church to pursue ministry in another denomination that is proof that you are not ready for the Diaconate. If I were on a team helping men discern vocations (as I was for a brief time in another diocese) I would strongly urge you to get a spiritual director and spend time on your own faith formation before you even consider the idea again. If you do not believe and accept all that the Catholic Church teaches you cannot assist others through ordained ministry, or even in teaching or catechetical ministry, until you are able to make such a profession of faith.

I disagree that asking the question of whether or not God is calling me to a Protestant denomination is a sign that I am not ready for the Diaconate. It is a sign that I am asking for the wisdom to understand God’s plan for me.

God does not want blind faith, and He would be very disappointed with me… with any of us… if we didn’t question our faith from time-to-time. What He is looking for is for us to commit to Him because we have made the conscious decision to do so, not because the Church or anyone else tells us to.

I’ve asked the question in such a way that I am wondering if there aren’t signs that I’m missing. Asking for (name removed by moderator)ut on this isn’t a sign that my faith is lacking in formation, but perhaps it falls to the people on this Board who respond not to question my faith, but to help reaffirm it.

BTW a spiritual director isn’t an option for me. I live in a small town with one Catholic Church whose priest also is pastor at the next town over. As I’ve indicated, we are not on the best of terms, so asking him to be a spiritual director isn’t an option, and I have nowhere else to turn.

 

[goravens]

MusicMan:

I disagree that asking the question of whether or not God is calling me to a Protestant denomination is a sign that I am not ready for the Diaconate. It is a sign that I am asking for the wisdom to understand God’s plan for me.

God does not want blind faith, and He would be very disappointed with me… with any of us… if we didn’t question our faith from time-to-time. What He is looking for is for us to commit to Him because we have made the conscious decision to do so, not because the Church or anyone else tells us to.

I’ve asked the question in such a way that I am wondering if there aren’t signs that I’m missing. Asking for (name removed by moderator)ut on this isn’t a sign that my faith is lacking in formation, but perhaps it falls to the people on this Board who respond not to question my faith, but to help reaffirm it.

BTW a spiritual director isn’t an option for me. I live in a small town with one Catholic Church whose priest also is pastor at the next town over. As I’ve indicated, we are not on the best of terms, so asking him to be a spiritual director isn’t an option, and I have nowhere else to turn.

It’s awesome you’re opening your life up to God’s plan for you. I guess I’m just unsure as to why you would consider the diaconate in the Catholic Church if you weren’t 100% on fire for the Catholic faith. Being a deacon would be a tremendous honor and responsibility. Thinking back to my own vocation discernment, I can’t see someone pursuing that if there are any considerations of jumping to another denomination altogether. Just my two cents.

As far as discernment, if you’ve not read “Finding God’s Will For You” by St. Francis de Sales I’d highly recommend it. It’s a book taken from his large work “An Introduction to the Devout Life”.

If you’re interested, the Henri Nouwen Society offers spiritual direction via the internet. Not the most ideal to be sure but it might be helpful in your case with being so far from any other options.
henrinouwen.org/programs/spiritualdirection/main/

Most importantly, re-evaluate your prayer life. Consider fasting.

Best wishes

 

[MusicMan]

I’ve read everyone’s reply and I appreciate the advice.

However, I am a tad bit concerned that everyone is so concerned about what they think I want. That I am thinking of leaving the Church. That I am thinking of being a Protestant minister. That as a result my faith is lacking, and I am somehow not yet ready for Diaconate formation.

The only thing that I said I wanted was to know what God wanted from me. I am seeking wisdom to understand His plan for me. That’s all I want.

If you believe in the one True Church, and you indicated that my faith was lacking or I wasn’t yet ready for Diaconate formation, well, you answered wrong.

The correct answer is: If God is calling you to serve through Orders, it is through the Diaconate. You are misunderstanding the events of your life, as you are allowing them to tempt you away from God’s call to serve the one True Church. Even our Lord Jesus was tempted away from God’s call to serve the one True Church during his forty days in the desert. Based on the information you gave us in your OP, you appear to be in a spiritual desert of your own. Pray, fast, and emerge from the desert ready to accept God’s call to serve.

I accept that my faith needs to be strengthened… everyone’s needs to be strengthened. Please pray for me, that God will grant me wisdom to understand His plan for me, and that I will have the humility to accept the plan. I shall keep all of you in my prayers as well.

 

[puzzleannie]

MusicMan:

I disagree that asking the question of whether or not God is calling me to a Protestant denomination is a sign that I am not ready for the Diaconate. It is a sign that I am asking for the wisdom to understand God’s plan for me.
.

if you imagine that the Holy Spirit, the one who calls those destined for the vocation of Holy Orders, the same Holy Spirit who sustains and guides the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ, would be calling you to leave that faith in order to pursue ministry in a Protestant denomination, then no, you do not know or believe your faith well enought to consider the diaconate, or any teaching or ministerial office in the Catholic Church. do you really think God’s plan for you involved leaving the Church? Have you so little knowledge and regard for Christ’s supreme gift in the Eucharist? Can you then say in the same breath you may be called to the service of liturgical ministry?

Whether it is convenient or not, you must have spiritual direction of you are discerning a vocation. I strongly recommend you lay out your entire story to the vocations director of your diocese and follow his advice.

 

[MusicMan]

Puzzleannie,

Me thinks you should read my last post (#10) and then give a response.

MusicMan

 

[puzzleannie]

if you already know the answer why did you ask for our opinions? if you were not contemplating leaving the Catholic Church, why did you throw that red herring into the discussion? we did our best to help, obviously you have arrived at your answer without it, so I am at a loss to know why you have invited this discussion? forum is very slow today and #10 was not up when I gave my answer.

 

[MusicMan]

This thread wasn’t a red herring. I needed affirmation. I hope and pray that you don’t understand the spiritual desert I am wandering in. I have reached out to you all for affirmation that I am pursuing the correct path, and as I read the answers given from the orthodox Catholics, I had an epiphany of what the path would be for those who believe that the Catholic Church is the one True Church.

Just because ya’ll didn’t spell it out for me doesn’t necessarily mean that I didn’t need help in arriving at the answer. You all, no pun intended, gave me the pieces to the puzzle, but I needed to put them together on my own.

 

[DIT]

I think you need to focus on the correct question about Holy Orders, which is:

“What are you being called to do?”

A priest asked that of a friend of mine. He stated that you are not called to the priesthood or the diaconate. You are called to an action, not an office.

I would like to know what you are being called to do?

 

[MusicMan]

DIT:

I would like to know what you are being called to do?

I would too.

 

[DIT]

MusicMan:

I would too.

I honestly feel that if you can not answer that question, you need spiritual direction to see if there is truly a calling.

From your responses on this post, you really have to question if the clergical life is your way of going. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I have been part of this process - the process of discernment. You might discern that lay ministry is your call. That is perfectly alright too. Lay ministry is growing more and more every day as a visible ministry inside and outside our Church.

What you are seeking on this site is not a “subjective search” in that the answer is black and white. But there is an answer that is a shade of grey. You have to feel drawn to a reason for being a member of the clergy.

The diaconate is calling for service more than a calling toward liturgical service. You need to know whether you have the call to work in a soup kitchen, ministry to the sick, mentor troubled youth, etc. These are a few of the ministries that a deacon is called to outside the walls of the church and outside liturgical service. It is not the exact same call as that of a priest. A liturgical call such as preaching or proclaiming the Word, baptisms, marriages, etc does not void you from the diaconate but it must go hand in hand with service.

Do you have these feelings or hear this call?

 

[MusicMan]

Is God actually calling me to ministry or am I calling myself to Orders in order to draw attention to myself? A lack of humility is the principal thing that makes me question a call.

We know from the Old Testament that God doesn’t always speak from a burning bush, in the form of thunder, or in a clear voice. I believe it was Elijah that he called to ministry with a small whisper.

At this point, I am privately discerning a call. I am praying for wisdom to understand God’s plan for me. Unfortunately, my spiritual life is very noisy right now, and I am unable to hear God’s instructions clearly. I am praying for that too.

When I can hear God speaking to me clearly, when I obtain the wisdom to understand His instructions, then I will then know what His plan for me is. If that includes a call to the Diaconate, then I will be prepared to accept that call. If it is a call to lay ministry, then I will be prepared to accept that call. If it is a call to sit quietly in my pew and only participate in the Mass from the pew, then I will be prepared to accept that call. And you know… if it is a call to leave the Catholic Church and minister to our Protestant brothers and sisters, then I will be prepared to accept that call too.

 

[DIT]

MusicMan:

Is God actually calling me to ministry or am I calling myself to Orders in order to draw attention to myself? A lack of humility is the principal thing that makes me question a call.

We know from the Old Testament that God doesn’t always speak from a burning bush, in the form of thunder, or in a clear voice. I believe it was Elijah that he called to ministry with a small whisper.

At this point, I am privately discerning a call. I am praying for wisdom to understand God’s plan for me. Unfortunately, my spiritual life is very noisy right now, and I am unable to hear God’s instructions clearly. I am praying for that too.

When I can hear God speaking to me clearly, when I obtain the wisdom to understand His instructions, then I will then know what His plan for me is. If that includes a call to the Diaconate, then I will be prepared to accept that call. If it is a call to lay ministry, then I will be prepared to accept that call. If it is a call to sit quietly in my pew and only participate in the Mass from the pew, then I will be prepared to accept that call. And you know… if it is a call to leave the Catholic Church and minister to our Protestant brothers and sisters, then I will be prepared to accept that call too.

I believe it was Samuel that was called by God repeatedly.

I pray you will listen for God’s call. If you are hearing him asking you to leave His Church, please seek spiritual direction. I don’t think God would ask you to do that.

 

[Gray_Sparrow]

MusicMan:

Is God actually calling me to ministry or am I calling myself to Orders in order to draw attention to myself? A lack of humility is the principal thing that makes me question a call.

We know from the Old Testament that God doesn’t always speak from a burning bush, in the form of thunder, or in a clear voice. I believe it was Elijah that he called to ministry with a small whisper.

At this point, I am privately discerning a call. I am praying for wisdom to understand God’s plan for me. Unfortunately, my spiritual life is very noisy right now, and I am unable to hear God’s instructions clearly. I am praying for that too.

When I can hear God speaking to me clearly, when I obtain the wisdom to understand His instructions, then I will then know what His plan for me is. If that includes a call to the Diaconate, then I will be prepared to accept that call. If it is a call to lay ministry, then I will be prepared to accept that call. If it is a call to sit quietly in my pew and only participate in the Mass from the pew, then I will be prepared to accept that call. And you know… if it is a call to leave the Catholic Church and minister to our Protestant brothers and sisters, then I will be prepared to accept that call too.

Dear Music Man

I know about that question, who is calling? just my vanity or God? I know because I have made it myself. I am a seminarian, and I am still in discernment

(about some specifics as if I should join a priestly order)

So?

1st Question: Does the call leads you to greater Hope, Faith and Charity? If it does so, then is probably from God. If not, forget it.

Yet the devil, as St Ignacio de Loyola, said, can get tricky, yet with prayer and contemplation is easy to spot to:

2nd Question: Is your call leading to a stronger communion with the Church and your local community (parish, etc)?

These things take time, and prayer and can’t be solved over the net. My advice is that you go and seek a spiritual father or whoever is in charge of vocations in your diocese and start a process. Go often to Mass (daily if possible) go to adoration and pray the liturgy of the hours www.universalis.com and maybe visit your local seminary, join the events…