Spiritual Warfare vs. Living in the Love of God

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Tis_Bearself

Patron
So a lot of priests, speakers, and prayer groups these days really are pushing the spiritual warfare, fight the demonic, etc theme. It sells.

I don’t mind this too much because
  • the devil is real and we do need to pray and oppose evil in our world, and some people may even be called to focus on that
  • getting more people to pray is a good thing; i’m sure God is happy to hear the prayers
  • it likely channels some anxiety and helps some people who have a hard time dealing with bad or scary stuff on the news/ in society; it gives them a framework to process what’s happening, and a concrete way to do something positive
However, I do wonder at what point the “fighting off demons” mindset clashes with the idea of living a simple life of love for God and neighbor, trying to live in God’s will.

Sometimes I feel that the demon-fighting and “apocalypse is just around the corner” mentality has become overly exploited as an exciting evangelization tool and yes, even to make money for those who push it. I try to set that aside and focus on the good fruit; I also realize that many if not most people pushing these views and becoming popular speakers, authors and faith leaders in the process are doing so in good faith, even if I might cast a jaundiced eye.

But I still wonder sometimes. “Hey, Let’s all go and fight demons overtaking society!” seems to draw thousands. (The demons always seem to be characterized as whatever politicians, protest group, priests, bishops, Pope etc the person praying doesn’t like.) “Hey, Let’s all go and love our fellow man today!” seems to get a much less enthusiastic response.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
In the first place, human beings do not defeat the demonic. Christ does that. Human beings co-operate in the victory of Christ.
Self-made warfare can be frustrating and exhausting. In my opinion, spiritual warfare is founded on living in the love of God, which naturally flows out to the world and leavens it. The love of God should bring peace to others, and the world is thirsting for peace.
We don’t fight with the weapons of the world.
 
Last edited:
I’m not sure if this applies, but personally my misgiving about it is the relative ease with which charismatic speakers can turn “Hey, let’s go fight all the demons/evil overtaking society” into something nefarious, such as when the “evil” is identified as a certain group of people; Jews, Muslims, immigrants, Democrats…which may lead to unChristian violence or hatred towards these groups, which isn’t really conductive to the Christian message or reflective of Christianity. Unfortunately, it is very easy to incite people to violence or hatred, especially those who don’t have the tendency to critically examine the things they hear or read, and “Let’s fight evil” can easily transform into, say, “Let’s fight Muslims/Jews/etc…” which may lead to hate or violence against these groups. For this reason I am wary of the “spiritual warfare” rhetoric in general. I do realize the need to fight the Devil; my concern lies when charismatic speakers convince certain people that a certain group is the Devil or doing the work of the Devil, when that is almost always not the case, and may lead to injustice being committed against said group.
 
Yeah, I think some people get way too excited about the word “warfare.” It makes them feel like they’re “doing something.”

A lot depends on how you look at it, too. To me, “living a simple life of love for God and neighbor, trying to live in God’s will” is the biggest part of spiritual warfare. Most of us will never be exorcists, never have a deliverance ministry, never personally “see” and/or cast out a demon.
But I firmly believe that caring for our neighbor who needs help, instead of concentrating on just ourselves, fights off the demons. Returning a kindness for an attack, instead of responding in kind, fights off the demons. All those little acts of love (think St. Therese) fight off the demons. And we all can do those. Sometimes we just have to pay a little more attention, in order to see the possibilities.
 
Last edited:
Salibi said:
the relative ease with which charismatic speakers can turn “Hey, let’s go fight all the demons/evil overtaking society” into something nefarious, such as when the “evil” is identified as a certain group of people; Jews, Muslims, immigrants, Democrats…which may lead to unChristian violence or hatred towards these groups, which isn’t really conductive to the Christian message or reflective of Christianity.
Click to expand...
Often times the speaker just leaves it open and lets everybody participating fill in the blank. I remember once a year or two back, Fr Heilman, a big proponent of the “warfare” approach, decided to do some prayer exercise where his group would pray for our “enemies”, as in pray for the conversion of specific people who needed to get right with God. He didn’t name names but the comments on his social media post quickly turned into a hate-fest with people saying very vile things about various Democratic politicians, Fr Martin, even their own ex-spouses. When I and another lady objected to the un-Christian (Putting it mildly) tone of some of the comments, I became the target of derision by several of these “good Catholics” who were getting all pumped to pray a 54-day novena. I got told I took the “blue pill” and all kinds of other stuff and I finally messaged a moderator. Father eventually posted saying people should just make their own enemies’ list and keep it private and not be posting names (and accompanying vitriol) all over the group, but it sure got ugly there for a little while.

I would say it was a disturbing view of my fellow Catholics but sadly I already knew a lot of them are like that. I myself have to fight the urge to just hate on people who really frost my cookies, but God teaches that we’re supposed to try to get past that feeling and genuinely see them as God’s children and love them. So I try. But a lot of people seem to think if somebody is “bad” enough (in their opinion) then it’s okay to just hate them and trash them.
 
Last edited:
Couldn’t have put it better myself. There are unfortunately many people who use Christianity rather as a stick with which to beat other people over the head than as a means through which to help spread peace and holiness in the world. What these people fail to understand is that the simple act of loving one’s enemy, of comforting the grieving, of praying, of welcoming the refugee, etc…are themselves acts of “spiritual warfare” that deal a blow to evil influences in the world.
Tis_Bearself said:
I would say it was a disturbing view of my fellow Catholics
Click to expand...
Don’t give them too much thought-just pray for them. Like I said, there are many who use Christianity as a facade or justification for their own hatred. Often these people will attack you, or the Pope, or the Church itself, when faced with correction. On this forum, Jews and homosexuals are the primary victims of this sort of thinking.
 
I find myself wobbling between these two concepts.

Evil is real, I’ve seen some very ugly activist behavior that has even touched my family, so in other words, I have first hand experience.

At the same time, I love the Mother Theresa/Dorothy Day style of activism mixed with contemplative style of being a healing force, a safe place to be to work out ones salvation.

In my own private spirituality, I’ve been trying to find or achieve a firm center where I’m not knocked back and forth between the two concepts.
 
One of my maxims for spiritual direction is that if you want to see the devil behind every blade of grass, there he will be. He only has as much power as we give him. Better to focus on the Lord and not worrying so much about the particulars when it comes to the devil. Don’t play not to lose, play to win. Don’t live to avoid sin, live to do rightly and act virtuously. If you focus on virtue, you will naturally root out vice. This is what the early Fathers emphasize constantly. Spiritual warfare for them isn’t the frightful, theatrical thing that most make it out to be today. It’s just living virtuously and prayerfully and controlling your thoughts.

And everything I’ve said here about the devil applies equally to sin itself. It’s not that we shouldn’t avoid sin, but we shouldn’t only strive to avoid sin. We have to do something good. We should live primarily to seek the Lord. Sin will master us only insofar as we give it the power to do so. Deprive it of its power by seeking to live well. The devil doesn’t care what sins we commit, he only cares that we come to identify with them and to forget our God given goodness.

-Fr ACEGC
 
Last edited:
edward_george1 said:
if you want to see the devil behind every blade of grass, there he will be. He only has as much power as we give him. Better to focus on the Lord and not worrying so much about the particulars when it comes to the devil.
Click to expand...
This is another concern I have had with the emphasis on the devil all the time. I realize in many cases it’s a reaction to the fact that post-Vatican II, the church seemed to try to avoid mentioning the devil and downplay a lot of supernatural aspects of the faith. But seeing the devil or the Apocalypse under every bush does not seem to me to be a productive way to live. Often it seems constantly reactive (see something you don’t like on TV? Woah, it’s the devil! We must fight!) and keeps people in a constant state of fight-or-flight adrenaline. Padre Pio was fighting the devil every day, yet he was very calm and prayerful.
 
Many people want the devil to be the convenient explanation for everything bad that goes on in their lives for the simple fact that they don’t want to be responsible for their own actions or their own need of change. I’ve encountered a lot of people like that in my short years as a priest. They’ll come to me for spiritual guidance and blame every problem they have on the devil, when really the problems are things that they could probably work through and learn to deal with if they tried. This is honestly how the devil traps us. He lets us do the work ourselves.
 
I usually get pounded for saying this. Mainly, I think, because this forum is popular with Christian converts. I mean, Catholic apologetics is pretty much CA’s reason for existence, and it’s bread and butter. And, apologetics are popular with adult converts who are coming from the Christian denominations.

I think it comes mainly from some Christian converts. Most of the spiritual warfare type stuff is put out by converts. I know that in some denominations that there is a certain amount of hell fire preaching and bible pounding. I don’t know of any life long Catholics who are like this, as they are not taught to be like this. Like Fr. said upthread, Catholics are taught to focus on, and do, good. Avoid bad, but don’t focus on it.

Cradle Catholics have largely lost control of the public narrative of Catholicism. Primarily regarding the internet. I can’t tell you how many friends and family I have who have come across ‘Catholic stuff’ on the internet and been turned off, and have had their already dim views of the Church reinforced. They don’t necessarily know enough to know that what they saw wasn’t Catholic teaching, but was some idiot doughbag from Church Militant or the like.

I think you are right about selling stuff. People want to show how ‘helpful’ they are by how many books they sell. I don’t think it’s greed. I think it’s pride.

I think there are other aspects that play into it as well. For instance, anybody can be a Christian preacher except in Catholicism. Some Christians really want to preach but they aren’t ordained. Solution - write a book, go on speaking tours, start a You-Tube channel, blog, start an internet site, start a “Catholic news outlet”, blah blah blah. I wouldn’t listen to any of those yahoo’s. The fact that so many of them are drooled over on this forum is disturbing to me. I would never recommend CAF for “the new evangelization”. I only recommend Bishop Barron’s or Fulton Sheen’s books or videos. Rant over.
 
Last edited:
1Lord1Faith said:
I think it comes mainly from some Christian converts. Most of the spiritual warfare type stuff is put out by converts. I know that in some denominations that there is a certain amount of hell fire preaching and bible pounding. I don’t know of any life long Catholics who are like this, as they are not taught to be like this
Click to expand...
I would agree with you, except we’re seeing more cradle Catholics pushing spiritual warfare these days. Fr. Ripperger, to my knowledge, is a cradle Catholic. So is Fr. Heilman. Both of them are leading the charge.
 
I sense from reading threads on this site that younger Catholics often use the language of “demons,” etc. That was not how I was raised, so I wonder if it is partly a generational thing. I certainly was raised to believe in the devil; don’t get me wrong. But I do note that attributing all sorts of bad things that happen to “demons” seems common these days, at least on this forum.

In general, in regards to your question, I think there is a bifurcation between those in the Church that emphasize “spiritual warfare” and those that emphasize virtue, goodness, etc. I certainly see this kind of thing in classic spiritual writers going way back, and it probably has to do with both one’s experience and one’s personality. So it is nothing new. Both sides seem necessary, with a balance in between.

I’m reminded of the (I think) Chesterton analogy of the “fat priest and thin priest.” The “fat” priest preaches God’s love and mercy. The “thin” priest preaches sin and the need for penance. We need them both, says Chesterton.
 
Last edited:
The more we allow the Light of Christ to enter into us through prayer, sacraments, and good works the more the darkness will recede.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I would agree with you, except we’re seeing more cradle Catholics pushing spiritual warfare these days. Fr. Ripperger, to my knowledge, is a cradle Catholic.
Click to expand...
I don’t know much about Fr. Ripperger. But I don’t think he is in the same class of spiritual warfare promoter as Doug Barry (also not a convert).

It seems like Fr. Ripperger is here to provide a service for those who need it, like the demonically oppressed, not necessarily the teenager on a Catholic retreat. That is to say, no one goes to a specialist when they have a cold. But for some reason, some people think that everyone needs to swat at a mosquito with a sledge hammer.

If posters here recommend Fr. Ripperger as a go to source for spirituality I would wonder why. Does one really need the guidance of a psychologist and exorcist after masturbating? I think not, but apparently some in the spiritual warfare crowd may disagree.
 
Last edited:
Old school Spiritual Combat, like in the original 16th century book or newer renditions of the same, is a great exercise but I definitely don’t touch it with a 10 foot stick if things feel too weird.
 
Last edited:
Fr. Ripperger promotes laypeople saying the Auxilium Christianorum prayers, as well as behaviors (such as penance) that are designed to either combat the demonic or prevent one from falling prey to it. I think he and similar traditional priests who emphasize this see us as being in a protracted battle with the forces of evil. This viewpoint seems to have been pretty common back in the pre-Vatican II and Baltimore Catechism days. I remember a chapter from the edition of Baltimore Catechism I used to prepare for Confirmation (about 10 years after VII) called “My Life is a Fight” that had a little illustration of a Catholic young man fighting off evil with a sword.

I don’t know as it has anything to do with him being an exorcist. Msgr. Esseff is also an exorcist and a popular retreat leader around here in recent years (he’s also a cradle Catholic and a protege of Padre Pio). His approach to spirituality is markedly different from Fr. Ripperger’s.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
trying to live in God’s will
Click to expand...
Someone involved with spiritual warfare is doing God’s will. It might not be for you so focus on what you think God’s will is for you.
Tis_Bearself said:
Hey, Let’s all go and love our fellow man today
Click to expand...
Performing the Spiritual Works of Mercy is loving our fellow man.

Jesus said ‘follow me’…I would think that includes into the desert?
 
Last edited:
Well, I don’t pay attention to popular movements so I can’t tell if you are seeing this trend in Catholicism or in Protestantism. But I do acknowledge there is the devil and a portion of the world is susceptible to evil.

However, for me I think it is unwise to believe we are capable of fighting the devil or evil. These are matters left for God and the angels, as the St, Michael prayer has taught us. As a Catholic, I feel that we are called to pray for discernment and repentance and for the best outcome for all in the world.

I suppose people who get up in fighting demons, the devil or evil have been watching too many movies or playing too many video games.

For my part I fear the devil and don’t acknowledge him. Hence, I don’t capitalize the word devil. Instead, I pray for the world that what seems obvious to me, the existence of evil and the devil, becomes obvious to others. I pray that people not lose hope and continue upon a religious path. Again, I an happy because I reject the ways of the world. I wish more people could see that.

And by ways of the world, I mean consumerism, materialism, politics, media, cable news, music…etc…
 
I agree with you. And many cradle Catholics feel the same in real life. Often times, I suspect posters on here are really Protestants pretending to be Catholics or trying to change Catholicism from within. It could be they are just converts, either way most Catholics I know would be deterred from being online for any reason especially knowing they can’t relate to online Catholics.

But again, I’ve come to accept these people are Catholics just not from my region of America. I never had to deal with Protestants growing up, so they have no influence over me. That’s another problem when Catholics had to grow up with strict Protestants and their criticism and then become self hating Catholics.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top