Spitzer's Apology Changes 'Ex-Gay' Debate

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this was a fascinating interview on NPR wth Dr. Spitzer on whose ideas the “gay cure” movement was based. Now he sees that it did more damage thatn good. An excellent read/listen.

npr.org/2012/05/21/153213796/spitzers-apology-changes-ex-gay-debate
Spitzer is not the only person who has engaged in attempting to cure homosexuality, and it should not be supposed that his reconciliation with the dominant forces in his profession means he was wrong. And his statements cannot rightly be taken as confirming the homosexual position that homosexuality is innate or immutable. For goodness sake, there are even people posting on CAF who have said that they, themselves, changed.

He has only said that his methodology did not satisfy the requirements of scientific method, something near to impossible to achieve in psychology anyway. He admits that his results were anecdotal. That’s it, and it was always known. Virtually every psych study can be critiqued in one way or another, and rightly so. Indeed, most published medical studies can be criticized in exactly the same way as Spitzer’s. All one has to do is to read medical articles to know that. But that does not mean they’re wrong.
 
I think both sides have attempted to spin Spitzer beyond his message. When you read the fine print, it appears that his study was limited to looking at the experiences of men who attempted to have their orientation changed from ‘gay to straight.’ This was never meant to be an evaluation of how this could work on gay men in general.

When the study came out, social conservatives all jumped on it and said “See gay is all in your head and you can get cured if you really want to.” The study could never have ‘proved’ that, but the spin machine didn’t care.

Now it is the revenge of the gay activists. The poor guy feels badly that his work has been so misrepresented and used as a club to beat gay men with, so he apologizes and clarifies that the study can’t prove what the pundits have claimed it does. The gay activist community promptly pulls the same dirty trick the conservatives previously did and tries to summarize him as publicly saying “Gay can’t be cured.”

Moral of the story: Don’t read headlines and DO read the fine print.
 
I think both sides have attempted to spin Spitzer beyond his message. When you read the fine print, it appears that his study was limited to looking at the experiences of men who attempted to have their orientation changed from ‘gay to straight.’ This was never meant to be an evaluation of how this could work on gay men in general.

When the study came out, social conservatives all jumped on it and said “See gay is all in your head and you can get cured if you really want to.” The study could never have ‘proved’ that, but the spin machine didn’t care.

Now it is the revenge of the gay activists. The poor guy feels badly that his work has been so misrepresented and used as a club to beat gay men with, so he apologizes and clarifies that the study can’t prove what the pundits have claimed it does. The gay activist community promptly pulls the same dirty trick the conservatives previously did and tries to summarize him as publicly saying “Gay can’t be cured.”

Moral of the story: Don’t read headlines and DO read the fine print.
Again, though, it must be remembered that Spitzer was not the only person who claimed there were some former homosexuals who went straight, and clearly some have. He was just one of the most noteable because he was the guy most responsible for getting homosexuality removed from the DSM as a mental disorder.

What is perhaps the oddest aspect of this is that it took him so long to say his “findings” were as limited as they were.
 
Spitzer is not the only person who has engaged in attempting to cure homosexuality, and it should not be supposed that his reconciliation with the dominant forces in his profession means he was wrong. And his statements cannot rightly be taken as confirming the homosexual position that homosexuality is innate or immutable. For goodness sake, there are even people posting on CAF who have said that they, themselves, changed.
“Changed?” Or in habituated denial?
He has only said that his methodology did not satisfy the requirements of scientific method, something near to impossible to achieve in psychology anyway. He admits that his results were anecdotal. That’s it, and it was always known. Virtually every psych study can be critiqued in one way or another, and rightly so. Indeed, most published medical studies can be criticized in exactly the same way as Spitzer’s. All one has to do is to read medical articles to know that. But that does not mean they’re wrong.
Also hjave to wonder how caqrefull you listened to the program and what the guests had to say.
 
I think both sides have attempted to spin Spitzer beyond his message. When you read the fine print, it appears that his study was limited to looking at the experiences of men who attempted to have their orientation changed from ‘gay to straight.’ This was never meant to be an evaluation of how this could work on gay men in general.

When the study came out, social conservatives all jumped on it and said “See gay is all in your head and you can get cured if you really want to.” The study could never have ‘proved’ that, but the spin machine didn’t care.

Now it is the revenge of the gay activists. The poor guy feels badly that his work has been so misrepresented and used as a club to beat gay men with, so he apologizes and clarifies that the study can’t prove what the pundits have claimed it does. The gay activist community promptly pulls the same dirty trick the conservatives previously did and tries to summarize him as publicly saying “Gay can’t be cured.”

Moral of the story: Don’t read headlines and DO read the fine print.
O between the lines. 🙂
 
“Changed?” Or in habituated denial?

Also hjave to wonder how caqrefull you listened to the program and what the guests had to say.
As to your first question, you would have to ask them. All I know is that there have been some in here who have said so. Put them under oath if need be. 🤷

I have no idea what your second comment means. If you mean the Conan thing I read the text. Do you think for a moment that anybody like Conan is going to challenge the “received wisdom” of the homosexual gospel, or that any guests would? After all, if Spitzer felt obliged by it to recant something he never said in the first place, does anybody really think lesser lights would volunteer for the same firing line?
 
“Changed?” Or in habituated denial?
Scan the forum and you will answer your own question, unless you choose to consider all such respondents to be liars.

Some of them state that they no longer feel any attraction to the same sex, while not necessarily experiencing active attraction to the opposite sex. Others have journeyed into traditiional marriage & experience attraction only to that mate, and to no others of the opposite sex.

etc.
 
“Changed?” Or in habituated denial?
Does one size really fit all? I’m related by marriage to a great guy who once would have self described as gay. He’s got 5 kids and has been happily married for 18 years.

But he’s just in habituated denial, right? :rolleyes:

Maybe people and their personalities just don’t fall into neat binary categories? Maybe disordered sexual worldviews are a spectrum, where there are opportunities for some to change, but others just never will? Who can really know? What this thing demonstrates most clearly is that unbiased scientific research into the subject is impossible right now. Too many with a vested interest pushing their desire outcome.

I know some peole hate the comparison, but again I see remarkable similarities with alcoholism. AA devotees will tell you there is no such thing as a “former alcoholic.” But there ARE people with some level of drinking problem, possibly orderline alcoholism that can recover without having to be teetotalers the rest of their lives. They might be rare, but I’ve met some of them too.
 
I know some peole hate the comparison, but again I see remarkable similarities with alcoholism. AA devotees will tell you there is no such thing as a “former alcoholic.” But there ARE people with some level of drinking problem, possibly orderline alcoholism that can recover without having to be teetotalers the rest of their lives. They might be rare, but I’ve met some of them too.
Of possible interest, slightly related perhaps, is that I once read a study by a major alcoholism institute about propensities or vulnerabilities to alcoholism. To their surprise they found that certain ethnicities really were more prone to alcoholism than others, regardless of how they were raised or where.

One really intriguing finding was that people of largely Celtic ancestery are both more prone to alcoholism and also have a “body cooling” device that is different from (more accurately, additional to) that of others. It was thought that that bodily process made one more vulnerable than one without it. More interesting was the fact that the pattern was found not only in the places we typically regard as “Celtic”, but also in those places that are Celtic but not thought to be so. One was in Spain, one in Poland, one in Turkey, among other better known “clusters” of people of Celtic origin. It’s very difficult for such people to overcome alcoholism because the body process stays whether the person drinks alcohol or not, and certain aspects of drinking non-alcoholic beverages can trigger a “want to” reaction regarding alcohol.

A neuropsychologist will tell you that some people are much more prone to drug addiction than are others; having to do with receptors in the brain and the readiness with which they will “develop” to react to drugs. One actually develops drug-specific brain receptors that do not go away even if the person stops using the drug. The greater the propensity to react, the harder it is for the person to ever give up drugs.

One might wonder, then, whether, when it comes to sexual addictions, there really might be inherent vulnerabilities or propensities which, if never triggered, might never be actuated in the person, but which might become activated with the right exposure.

And so, one might also wonder whether whatever psychological or even physical condition might make it extraordinarily difficult for a particular person to overcome such addiction once it is triggered, then reinforced by acting on it repeatedly, is similar.

Therefore, one might wonder whether a sex-drenched environment might be just as hazardous for one with innate vulnerabilities to sexual excess or perversion as a drug-pervasive environment or a heavy drinking culture might be for a person with the physical propensities to become addicted to them.

If so, then drenching our society with messages of sexual excess and perversion might be just as harmful to the young as putting a Celtic kid to work in a tavern might be. And if that’s so, then this society is doing exactly the wrong thing, and is certainly doing the kid no favors.

But that won’t be studied by today’s psychological community because, other than pedophilia and a handful of others, sexual excesses and perversions are considered “normal” by fiat, and therefore “off limits” to respectable study, and certainly to the grant process.
 
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