Split: 4 questions for Catholics

[followingtheway]

Where on earth (figuratively) do you find any such concept of “purgatory” though?

Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 … temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11 … God’s painful discipline.
Mt 12:32 … no forgiveness … nor in the age to come. In Heaven, there is already forgiveness and in Hell, there is none, so it implies a 3rd place.
1 Pet 3:19 … purgatory
Rev 21:27 … nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23 … souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 … “extra” suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46 … sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18 … prayer for Onesiphorus for “that Day.”
1 Jn 5:14-17 … mortal/venial sins

 

[pablope]

Rev. 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
(Any sin is “unclean” - even a small one. Those who die with any sin in their being (mind/heart/…) must be cleansed of it before they can enter heaven.)

Thus the Blood of CHRIST! All who are not covered in Christ’s blood are damned, all who are shall be saved. To suggest that the sins of believers must be cleansed in a “holding-tank” for a certain amount of time based on their wickedness and disobedience makes Christ’s blood of little to no repute. His blood is insufficent to save, insufficient to cleanse, and insufficient to take us to righteousness; He tried to do it now we have to finish it ourselves. I know this is not what you believe, to an extent, but I fear that this is the direct conclusion one must reach if they hold to this concept of purgatory.

I do not mean to say anything in an offensive way, and apologize in advance if I do so…

Responses to others’ post coming soon!

From Matthew 25…sheep and goats…

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’…

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The sheep went to eternal life by making themselves righteous, or were rewarded by making themselves righteous.

On the other hand, the goats did not make themselves righteous, nor were declared righteous. They were not cloaked with blood, nor covered by Christ.

 

[MarkBrown]

So the idea of purgatory is advocated in the Apocrypha, not, say the King James Version or the English Standard Version?

The original 1611 KJV had the Aprocrypha. By the late 17th century it was starting to be removed.

So, originally this protestant bible had the idea of purgatory.

Oh and another protestant bible called the Geneva Bible included it. So originally it was
taught in protestant bibles.

Now the question is why did the protestants take this part of scriptures out of the Canon
of Scripture?

 

[Cat_Herder]

To Nita, I appreciate you presenting Scripture as basis for your belief. However, those passages suggest, to my mind anyway, no such concept.
…
Thus the Blood of CHRIST! All who are not covered in Christ’s blood are damned, all who are shall be saved. To suggest that the sins of believers must be cleansed in a “holding-tank” for a certain amount of time based on their wickedness and disobedience makes Christ’s blood of little to no repute. His blood is insufficent to save, insufficient to cleanse, and insufficient to take us to righteousness; He tried to do it now we have to finish it ourselves. I know this is not what you believe, to an extent, but I fear that this is the direct conclusion one must reach if they hold to this concept of purgatory.

"He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since He did this once for all when He offered up himself." Hebrews 7:27 (ESV)

This verse says a sacrifice once for all; not ever so often, not sometimes, or even after death. Christ’s sacrifice is either fully sufficient or it is a complete and utter failure. Since He is God I imagine it was probably the former, since all He does is good and perfect.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV)

This suggests total and complete cleansing. No good work on earth can keep you from purgatory, because you cannot be headed there if your sins are as white as snow!

Think very carefully about what you have said.

Everyone agrees that the only reason that there is such a thing as death is because it is the wages of sin (Rom 6:23). So if “Christ’s sacrifice is ] fully sufficient” to remove all of the wages of sin in the sense that you claim, then it follows that there must be no more death.

Your church has funerals.

Does the fact that members of your church (or any church) are dying mean that Christ’s atonement for their sins was somehow not “once for all” or was somehow insufficient? Of course not. Christ’s sacrifice was perfect, however your understanding of how that sacrifice is applied to human beings is not.

One problem is with the Evangelical definition of salvation as a one time event, after which sin and its effects are supposedly irrelevant. It just isn’t so.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-29[/BIBLEDRB]

Notice that Paul is addressing this to those who by their sin render the “blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified,” a qualification not applicable to Jews. Therefore, this admonition regarding mortal sin is being given to Christians. Paul would have no need to give this warning if the Evangelical understandings of salvation were correct. Jesus is not a “fall guy” who becomes an imputed stand-in for your sins. He is God. To be saved you must give Him His Lordship, not just on the day you were saved but always. Salvation is not a one-time event but is a participation in Christ’s life; that participation includes participating in His death (Rom 6:1-4), which is why your church has funerals.

Yes, your sins are gone when you are baptized. But you are still capable of sinning and unless the Second Coming occurs within five minutes of your baptism, you are going to sin. That doesn’t mean that Jesus is too weak to keep you from sinning. It means that WE are too weak and that He is merciful in that He permits U-turns and gives us the grace necessary to take them, without forcing us to take them.

To go to heaven, those U-turns must first have been taken according to the verse from Revelation that you cite (21:27), and if they aren’t taken by the time you leave this earth there must be some other place other than earth where you will take them, i.e., purgatory.

 

[Julia_Mae]

To All Catholics,

I am a Reformed Protestant, attending a Baptist church, and as I have surveyed the different posts on this subject, a couple of questions present themselves to me.

First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?
Jn 3:5
Second, is it accepted Catholic doctrine to believe that innocent people dont go to hell?
Yes.
Finally, is purgatory still an accepted doctrine in Catholicism?
Yes.
Also, I want to offer a quick response to the question, “Do Children Go To Hell?”
No.

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1257

 

[JD27076]

Hello Lightbearer, I am from Georgia too and I am a Southern Baptist. But I am converting to Catholicism. Nice to come home.

 

[Evan]

To All Catholics,

Second, is it accepted Catholic doctrine to believe that innocent people dont go to hell?
Yes.

Probably just a poor choice of words, for who among us is innocent? We are conceived in a fallen state. So none of us can place a claim on the title “innocent”.

I presume you mean no-one with only original sin goes to Hell? If that is what you mean, then “Yes” is not the Catholic answer. The answer to that is “we don’t know and leave all such people to the mercy of God” see CCC 1261

 

[TimothyH]

Finally, is purgatory still an accepted doctrine in Catholicism?

The idea that the souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, that these will enter purgatory, is infallible teaching of the Church.

That the living Faithful can come to the assistance of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercessions is also taught infallibly.

Both of these dogmas bear the highest possible ranking of “De fide.” This means that they are Divine revelations with the highest degree of certainty. They are considered revelation from God to His Church and as such, require the assent of faith by all believers.

-Tim-

 

[Julia_Mae]

Probably just a poor choice of words, for who among us is innocent? We are conceived in a fallen state. So none of us can place a claim on the title “innocent”.

I presume you mean no-one with only original sin goes to Hell? If that is what you mean, then “Yes” is not the Catholic answer. The answer to that is “we don’t know and leave all such people to the mercy of God” see CCC 1261

Originally Posted by Julia Mae
To All Catholics,

Second, is it accepted Catholic doctrine to believe that innocent people dont go to hell?
Yes.

I just quoted 1261 in the post you quoted. I stand by my opinion.

 

[Ruthie_again]

…Mark 16:16 in which Christ says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” At first, it appears He advocates baptismal regeneration, until you read the second half of that verse. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU ARE CONDEMNED…not if you aren’t baptized.

I do not believe that our Lord Jesus Christ ever contradicted himself. That means that both halves of this sentence are true.

One reason I became Catholic is because we teach that the Bible is a coherent whole - it does not contradict itself. (The very argument you used above is one reason why I was looking for coherency.)

If the Bible says that (A) is true in one place, and that (B) is true in another, then both things are true. If (A) and (B) seem contradictory, then we need to read further.

Here we have our Lord speaking one sentence, in one verse, not in different books by different inspired authors. One may not ignore what he said in the first half because we don’t like it.

 

[Benadam]

To All Catholics,

I am a Reformed Protestant, attending a Baptist church, and as I have surveyed the different posts on this subject, a couple of questions present themselves to me.

First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?