SPLIT: Bible verses that show God is mean

[SanctusEnigma40]

Hey Patrick,
You have nothing to apologize for, and since we are in the mood of confessing sins, you should know that i am probably as uneducated as you, or even more. I don’t think you give yourself enough credit either. you raise some good and interesting points too (that I will like to address in a little bit).

I am really trying hard to understand this things. I do not have a problem with a God that takes lives. He is the giver of life, He is in his right to take it away. When Korah rebel in the wilderness, I agree wholeheartedly that he and the ring leaders that were challenging Moses authority had to be put down. The simply had to go. I do not have problem with God killing them at all. My problem is that God did not only killed Korah and the ringleaders, but their families and children too. This is where I start to have issues.

The Amalekites needed to go, agree!, No problem there, but I have issues with God commanding his armies to not spare the children, babies, and sucklings.

I have issues with God killing the firstborns of egypt, from the animals, to the babies.
I would not say nothing if God just kills the stubborn egyptian Pharaoh. He had to go. If God would have kill him, he had it coming because He is obstinate and excels in opposing God, and challenging the authority of God (although the bible say that God harden His heart too).

But when God decided to kill the firstborns, from Pharaoh household to the animals, then I start having serious issues with this.

Some people think that what I want is a Hippie, tree huger God in heaven that is all about peace and love, and will not harm a mosquito.

People are just wrong about this because if they listen really to my objections, they will realize that is not about that at all.

I cannot read in the text anything that the two sons of poor faithful Aaron would have done to deserve to be barbecued by God. Maybe they did deserve it an had it coming, but i could not find anything in there that made me think that their well intended (but not requested) offering of incense will deserve them being roasted alive by God.

Now, just because i cannot find a justification for God actions, I have the right to say: "I know as a fact that God did not have a good reason for doing this!

I agree with that. Maybe God did have a good reason! Who knows!, but for me is very, very hard to comprehend this.

Some people say (even in my family) that it is an outrage and a complete blasphemy for me to even dare to question God.

But in my humble opinion, if god exist, and He is in fact a good God, I will expect Him to have a thick Skin. I cannot imagine a god that will be so upset and angry at me for daring to questions this kind of stuff, specially since He decided that it was OK to have them in His own book.

If I was to spend the rest of my life blaspheming God vociferously in the streets, 24/7 for the rest of my life, have i really done anything to God? No! I only manage to harm myself!

If I ever manage to destroy all of God creation, and yell in anger at God for the rest of my life, have I manage to do a thing to god? Not at all!

There is a way in which God is Transcendent to all of us. So I do not believe that for me to dare to questions this things is such an evil and blasphemous deed, specially when i am very sinsere about wanting to have an answer that satisfy me. Is God that insecure of himself that He will have me killed for daring to have the courage to ask this questions?

When Job or David had his serious doubts about God goodness, God did not strike him dead.
I am not worthy to be compared with the just Job or David by any stretch of the imagination, but i think you can understand the point I am trying to make.

Many atheist have this very same questions, and I think they deserve a good answer, wether some of them do it with incinserity, or with wrong motives.

Something that I have heard before is that is was OK for god to kill this innocent, since He will receive their little souls in heaven immediately. It might be true, but I just find the whole thing very counterintuitive. Somehow I cannot picture God ordering this babies to be slaughtered or butchered through the sword or spear (having an horrible death) and immediately receiving them with His arms open in Heaven.

I cannot help to think about it, and picturing this, and having my stomach revolted.

I fail misserably to being able to reconcile this two pictures together. Again, the whole thing seams to me very counterintuitive.

 

[SanctusEnigma40]

You rise three interesting question that I am thinking very hard about since you posted them:

1.) How do you know your moral intuition at this point is accurate?
2.) Do you believe that an ‘unjust’ act is always ‘unjust’ without exception, regardless of competing ethical demands?
3.) If there are exceptions, show how those exceptions do not hold in this case, or how there could not be any exception which would be valid in this case.

This is the best i can come up for now:

1. I do not know that my moral intuition is accurate. Maybe is wrong for all i know!, but I cannot deny that it revolts my stomach to read that God commanded to kill babies in the Old Testament. It is something that hits me very deep in my guts. The feeling is very primal if you will.
   A good friend (one of the few left since i dare to start questioning this things) told me the other day: Since this people were killing all their babies anyway (practicing children sacrifice to their pagan gods) God did not have problem in exterminating them. But this again is still very counterintuitive for me, and I find myself unable to buy it: Since the babies where going to be sacrificed anyway, then it made it OK for God to butchered them? Somehow, I do not think so.

Again, I do not know that my moral intuition is accurate. I am left with only being able to tell you honestly how I feel about the whole thing. That is the only thing i can do.

2 and 3) My only answer to this point is: unjust acts can only be correctly judge when knowing everything there is to know about the whole thing: Motives, and everything behind the actions themselves.
I do not claim to know the mind of God, and I do not claim to have all the facts about the whole thing. The only thing I have in my hands is the book that He inspired, and when I read it, the whole thing seams wrong to me (the parts about all the cruelty in the OT).

Now, If i was still thinking like a protestant, this is all I will ever have: God’s book, and my own private interpretation.

But i am trying to think with the Catholic part of my brain that say: You need to have the illumination of the Church on this verses to have a correct interpretation of things.
And that is whay I am here for: to get just that.

I was very naive in thinking that I will get to talk here with Priests and Nuns mostly, but it is obvious to me now that most people here in the forums are good intention lay people that love God, and are very opinionated and honest in what they believe, but they might or might not represent the official opinion of the church concerning all matters.

For this, is obvious now, I will have to look for different venues.

I was kind of hoping to get straighten out in the first few posts, but this whole thing gets getting stretch and keeps growing out of hand.

I am right now exploring a few alternatives with Angels unaware and hopefully I will be getting somewhere soon.

Thanks for your kind remarks in your last post as well as your insight concerning the canaanites and your excellent argument there. It is very good. They were indeed warned, although I am not still sure that this still grants God to be Just in butchering their babies.

God is suppose to act also accordingly to his own nature (at least) if not according to established standards of morality (wether outside or inside of him).

I look forward in the future to keep corresponding to you wether on the forums, or privately as well.

Untli next time,

SanctusEnigma40