SPLIT: Catholicism vs. other world religions

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
The Catholic position is that the mountain is structured such that there is a point, rather “far down” on the mountain, which is the only “pass” through which one can reach the summit.

The Buddhist position is that Catholics have a map of the North face of the mountain. The Buddhists have a map of the South face, which has a different geography.

I don’t care what the “position” of the buddhist is, because the buddhist isn’t even confident enough with his own “position” to claim that it is the absolute truth!

There is ONE MOUNTAIN. That one mountain has one path to it’s summit. There are many false peaks with paths to them, and there are many “wide spots” in the path to the summit which allow some variation in approach to the summit, but there are “narrows” in various places which absolutely force one to choose either the summit or some false peak.

I state this as an absolute truth. Unless you can do the same, your relativistic opinion is of no consequence to me.

I don’t mind people making claims of absolute truth, because they will eventually be informed of the actual truth of their claims, but I can’t abide people who “make false peace” with others by being utterly wishy-washy (to the point of syncretistic hyper-relativism) in matters that simply REQUIRE taking an absolutist stand.

To people like that I’ll gladly inform them of where they are wrong, and where they are right in their syncretistic relativistic mish-mash, but if they object to me describing them as what they are, them I’d rather just enjoy the day with them by being real about the beauty of the world we live in.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
The buddhist (and a relativist) believes that the mountain is a gently rolling hill by which the summit is reachable from ANY path up it’s sides, moderated only by the relative comfort of a chosen path and the “view” from the path chosen.

Why do you keep on saying that the Buddhist path is easy? I could say that the Christian path is easy because God does all the work. If you commit a moral error, then you can go to God and get your sins forgiven. Buddhists do not have that option. It we make a mistake then we will suffer for it. There is no forgiveness of sins in Buddhism, if you do the crime then you do the time.

I don’t say the buddhist path is easy. It’s ludicrous overwrought and NOT easy, in my opinion.

I’m only saying that it is wrong because it’s axioms are incorrect. Where it DOES coincide with Catholic doctrine (dogma) it is correct, and IS that way because it is an authentic “hearing” of natural law or it is a “leaked” bit of truth syncretized from the People of God.

Catholics are not utterly forgiven for their sins. The temporal effects of our sins need to be purged (from us) by earthly-life penance and post-earthly-life purgation (purgatory).

But our mortal sins will not drag us into hell if we “LET GO” of them, by the process of reconciliation. Also.

The requirements of actually BEING forgiven for a mortal sin are rather strict, if you really look at it. The most difficult part being having a truly contrite heart, of course.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Jesus is the singular pass and narrow trail to the true summit, and His “uniquity” of being passage starts far far down the climb.

Yet people who have no knowledge of Jesus can still be saved, or is God’s saving power limited by the abillity of Christian missionaries to travel to America or Australia? The situation is not as simple as you seem to be making it.

You need to do some research about how non-Catholics have the opportunity for salvation.

One is can only chose hell if one actually (culpably) knows what hell is. One can know what hell is by means of hearing natural law and doing the opposite.

If one does not choose hell, then one is given heaven, and before heaven is reached that which needs purging from your person is purged (in, wait for it,… “purgatory”). The end result of purgatory is inevitably and invariably heaven (the beatific vision).

The question as to who gets to heaven, and which “paths” allow for it’s being reached, is not about WHICH path one chooses, but about on what principles one chooses as theirs as truth while ON any particular path.

Buddhists do go to heaven, if they choose those principles within buddhism which are in fact true, and don’t “hold onto” those principles within buddhism which are false.

How can one know which are true and which are false? Only through a “divine revelation”, be it a God-given personal one (as opposed to a demon-given personal one which is by definition a “leading away” from truth) or the acceptance of a public one.

The ONLY valid public divine revelation is given by the Magisterium of the Church. So, if THAT revelation is discounted then all that is left to decide with is the dubious validity of one’s private revelation, which is notoriously subject to “ego desires”.

 

[Sarpedon]

The evidence of the Buddhist path does not come all at once at the end of practice. One sees evidence as one practices. This evidence slowly accumulates and verifies one’s practice as one goes along. One reaches enlightenment while still alive.

Exactly, the “evidence” comes through practicing it. If you are already practicing it, you are already involved in it, for better or worse.

Look at it this way- suppose an occultist told you the evidence for the goodness of the the occult will come with practicing it. Is it a good idea to start experimenting?

(I am in no way trying to tie buddhism in with the occult, merely bringing up an example where trial and error can be dangerous)

I also suggest that Catholics rely on “evidence” as presented by the Church. This evidence is completely dependent upon one’s faith in the power and truth of the Church. To those who do not have faith in the Church, the evidence does not present itself. For example the evidence of the Church is invisible to Jews.

Not at all. The evidence for Catholicism is based in philosophy, which can be accessed by anyone. The arguments for the church can be evaluated by anyone regardless of their faith. If you want some examples, browse through some of the atheist vs. Catholic threads on this site. Jews can evaluate the merits of the the philosophic arguments as well as any of us can.

You believe you are correct because you have faith, not evidence, that the Church is correct.

Through rigorous testing of the explanations of Catholicism, I find it to be the most logically consistent and coherent explanation of the world and the human experience.

 

[Sarpedon]

If you take any path you might get to the top of the mountain, expecially if - as you pointed out - in the initial stages all the paths are very similar. If you want complete certainty before you start then you will never start on the path and you are 100% certain not to reach the top.

I don’t want complete certainty, just a reasonable level of certainty. Buddhists say I should just start heading down a trail rather than checking the map first so I know what I’m getting into.

I said to check regularly. If you do not like where you are going then take a different turning.

Striking out on unknown trails and checking after going for a while whether it is the right one wastes a lot of time, especially if you are limited in your time and everything hangs in the balance… I would be inclined to check the map and get on the right one the first time.

 

[notself]

I don’t want complete certainty, just a reasonable level of certainty. Buddhists say I should just start heading down a trail rather than checking the map first so I know what I’m getting into.

Striking out on unknown trails and checking after going for a while whether it is the right one wastes a lot of time, especially if you are limited in your time and everything hangs in the balance… I would be inclined to check the map and get on the right one the first time.

The benefits of meditation are being studied in Universities and labs around the world. Some of the claims of Buddhism regarding specific meditation techniques are being supported by experimental testing. This does not mean that other claims are incorrect. It just means that they have not been scientifically tested.

The moral code of Buddhism is equal to or higher than other world religions. Buddhism was the first world religion, one that left its local area and spread without warfare from India through South East Asia, China, Korea, Japan, Tibet, Afghanistan, and Greece. All this was before the time of Christ.

The Path of Buddhism is hardly an unknown trail.

Philosophical arguments are not proof in any scientific sense of the word. There is no proof beyond faith and philosophy for any God. All religious belief ultimately depends on faith. That is why you refer to your religious belief as the Catholic Faith.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

The benefits of meditation are being studied in Universities and labs around the world. Some of the claims of Buddhism regarding specific meditation techniques are being supported by experimental testing. This does not mean that other claims are incorrect. It just means that they have not been scientifically tested.

We’re not taking about the benefits of meditation techniques. We’re talking about being most human by being most Godlike.

What do you mean in your above verbiage by “benefits”, and “buddhist claims (results?) of specific meditation techniques”?

The moral code of Buddhism is equal to or higher than other world religions. Buddhism was the first world religion, one that left its local area and spread without warfare from India through South East Asia, China, Korea, Japan, Tibet, Afghanistan, and Greece. All this was before the time of Christ.

I beg to differ. By what criteria do you valuate the buddhist moral code to be “equal to or higher than”?

The Path of Buddhism is hardly an unknown trail.

Philosophical arguments are not proof in any scientific sense of the word. There is no proof beyond faith and philosophy for any God. All religious belief ultimately depends on faith. That is why you refer to your religious belief as the Catholic Faith.

To know what “God” means is to have proof of God Himself. Only by having proof from God of God is salvation most likely to be one’s chosen destination. Buddhists are actively steered away from “gods”, and God, as “delusional things”, thus demonstrating that buddhists don’t know what “God” means, which means that they are less likely than they could be to choose God and heaven.

Once again, only by having proof from God of God is salvation most likely to be one’s chosen destination, and making God unprovable by “techniques” is a sure way to make salvation harder than it needs to be.

 

[wildleafblower]

I (a Roman Catholic lady) was compelled by the Holy Spirit of God to present this:
VISITA “AD LIMINA APOSTOLORUM” DEGLI ECC.MI PRESULI DELLA CONFERENZA EPISCOPALE DELLA THAILANDIA , 16.05.2008 **
[snip]
Santo Padre Benedetto XVI **
[snip]

DISCORSO DEL SANTO PADRE

Dear Brother Bishops,

“Lord, send forth your Spirit and renew the face of the earth” (cf. Ps 104:30). With these words of the Pentecost antiphon I cordially welcome you, the Bishops of Thailand. I thank Bishop Phimphisan for the kind sentiments expressed on your behalf. I warmly reciprocate them and assure you of my prayers for yourselves and all those entrusted to your pastoral care. Your visit ad Limina Apostolorum is an occasion to strengthen your commitment to make Jesus increasingly visible within the Church and known in society through witness to the love and truth of his Gospel.

The great feast of Pentecost which we have recently celebrated reminds us that the Spirit of the Lord fills the whole world and prompts us to bring Christ to all peoples. In your country this mission of the small Catholic community is undertaken within the context of relationships, most especially with Buddhists. In fact, you have readily expressed to me your great respect for the Buddhist monasteries and the esteem you have for the contribution they make to the social and cultural life of the Thai people.

The coexistence of different religious communities today unfolds against the backdrop of globalization. Recently I observed that the forces of globalization see humanity poised between two poles. On the one hand there is the growing multitude of economic and cultural bonds which usually enhance a sense of global solidarity and shared responsibility for the well-being of humanity. On the other there are disturbing signs of a fragmentation and a certain individualism in which secularism takes a hold, pushing the transcendent and the sense of the sacred to the margins and eclipsing the very source of harmony and unity within the universe.

The negative aspects of this cultural phenomenon, which cause dismay to yourselves and other religious leaders in your country, in fact point to the importance of interreligious cooperation. They call for a concerted effort to uphold the spiritual and moral soul of your people. In concordance with Buddhists, you can promote mutual understanding concerning the transmission of traditions to succeeding generations, the articulation of ethical values discernable to reason, reverence for the transcendent, prayer and contemplation. Such practices and dispositions serve the common well-being of society and nurture the essence of every human being.

As shepherds of small and scattered flocks, you draw comfort from the sending of the Paraclete, who advocates, counsels and protects (cf. Jn 14:16). Encourage the faithful to embrace all that begets the new life of Pentecost! The Spirit of truth reminds us that the Father and the Son are present in the world through those who love Christ and keep his word (cf. Jn 14:22-23), becoming disciples sent forth to bear fruit (cf. Jn 15:8). The outpouring of the Spirit is therefore both a gift and a task; a task which in turn becomes itself an epiphanic gift: the presentation of Christ and his love to the world. In Thailand, that gift is encountered particularly through the Church’s medical clinics and social works as well as through her schools, for it is there that the noble Thai people may come to recognize and know the face of Jesus Christ.

Dear Brothers, you have rightly noted that Catholic schools and colleges make a remarkable contribution to the intellectual formation of numerous young Thais. They should also make an outstanding contribution to the spiritual and moral education of the young. Indeed, it is for these crucial aspects of the formation of the person that parents – whether Catholic or Buddhist – turn to Catholic schools.

[snip]
212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/22141.php?index=22141&po_date=16.05.2008&lang=it
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/22141.php?
index=22141&po_date=16.05.2008&lang=it

And

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE
MESSAGE TO BUDDHISTS FOR THE FEAST OF VESAKH 2003

Buddhists and Christians:
Praying for Peace in the World

Dear Buddhist Friends (Hi ya Rossum) ,

[snip]

1. We Christians and Buddhists are convinced that the origin of all conflict is ultimately located in human hearts characterized by selfish desire, specifically by desire for power, domination and wealth often at the expense of others. It is also our common conviction that peace must inhabit people s hearts before it can become a social reality. For us, therefore, the most fundamental and efficient way to advance peace is to do our best to see that the deep-rooted selfishness of human hearts is overcome, so that people may be transformed into true artisans of peace.
   [snip]

Archbishop Michael L. Fitzgerald,
President
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_20030509_vesakh2003_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...ts/rc_pc_interelg_20030509_vesakh2003_en.html

I encourage a thorough reading of both documents from the Vatican:Holy See. May God bless the continuing dialogue.