SPLIT: Discussing the image of God and the infinity of Mind

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Oops! I should have asked, "What is the dimension of infinite?

I know your answer and I sort of concur with both of them. However, we are told that we (humans) have been “made in His image and likeness.” Yet, we do not appear to be infinite in appearance.

We do need the thread opener to be more specific in what was meant in the OP by “form”.

God bless you,
JD
It seems to me that the Mind has no spatial location. We have only a sense of time because our mind is attached to a physical Location we call the Brain.
Its kind of like film. Freeze frames become actual through processes and duration; but the individual frames remain frozen, or rather in our case, eternal?

In any case; human beings are only analogous to God.
We are but an artistic impression. Not an exact duplicate.
Though one can have a potential infinite, it is logically impossible
to create an actual infinite. It simply exists, or not at all.
We are but a finite limited expression of the great infinite. Creation is a living metaphore generated by Gods eternal expression. We are like God in the sense that we are “personal” and have existence, but we are not Gods reflection in the mirrior.
 
It seems to me that the Mind has no spatial location. We have only a sense of time because our mind is attached to a physical Location we call the Brain.
Its kind of like film. Freeze frames become actual through processes and duration; but the individual frames remain frozen, or rather in our case, eternal?

In any case; human beings are only analogous to God.
We are but an artistic impression. Not an exact duplicate.
Though one can have a potential infinite, it is logically impossible
to create an actual infinite. It simply exists, or not at all.
We are but a finite limited expression of the great infinite. Creation is a living metaphore generated by Gods eternal expression. We are like God in the sense that we are “personal” and have existence, but we are not Gods reflection in the mirrior.
I agree that humans are very finitely analgous to God. But, the words used are, “image and likeness”. I have to think about it, but, it would seem to me that those words connote or, perhaps, denote that we have the appearance of God much the same as we have similar apprearances with our ancestors (parents).

True: there can be no physical (created) actual infinity. I like the concept that “creation is a living metaphor”.

What did you think of Psychotheosophy’s Post # 2 in our previous thread?

God bless,
JD
 
Leave it to our finite minds to take “made in His image” literally.

We are not our bodies. It is not our physical form that is in His image, it is our souls.

Our souls are created in God’s image meaning that they are eternal, but unlike God, we have a beginning.
 
It seems to me that the Mind has no spatial location. We have only a sense of time because our mind is attached to a physical Location we call the Brain.
Its kind of like film. Freeze frames become actual through processes and duration; but the individual frames remain frozen, or rather in our case, eternal?
I’m having trouble conceiving of the Mind not having spatial location. . .

If it is “housed” by the brain, so to speak, then would it not have the same spatial location as its house? Actually, Thomistically speaking, we have a sense of Time due to its definition as the “measure of motion” and our senses grasping many local motions.

Do we not perceive each moment of a particular local motion as a sequential series of frozen frames? That is simply the mechanism, if you will, of how we receive the sensible information. But, the thing in motion moves along smoothly despite the “timeline” abstractly consisting of myriad points along the way from point A to point Z, like some contiguous mega-point.

(It is interesting that you and I both believe that, under the proper circumstances, our minds can pull up and render one single frame for consideration!)

God bless,
JD
 
Leave it to our finite minds to take “made in His image” literally.

We are not our bodies. It is not our physical form that is in His image, it is our souls.

Our souls are created in God’s image meaning that they are eternal, but unlike God, we have a beginning.
Believe it or not, I knew that, but, still I am drawn (somehow) to want to look like Him. Despite this, why would God have chosen a “look” resembling the human being as our reference point in a concept of Him? Of all the things in our universe, why not a rose?🙂

God bless,
JD
 
I’m having trouble conceiving of the Mind not having spatial location.

If it is “housed” by the brain, so to speak, then would it not have the same spatial location as its house?
I can think of an orange; but it would be absurd of me to think that there is an actual orange located in my brain, and yet it would be equally absurd to claim that my idea of an orange does not exist. Out of nothing comes nothing; by that i mean, one could not think something that is nothing, for that is the same as not thinking at all. It does not exist physically, but it must exist spiritually. The same problem occurs with mind. If it cannot be identified with atoms, then it cannot be identified as a spatially locatable thing. When you speak to a human; you are speaking only first to the brain (which is the physical part of you); the brain then processes the information and stores some of it, and then it communicates with the transcendent self (which is the spiritual part of you). All this in a billionth of a second.
Actually, Thomistically speaking, we have a sense of Time due to its definition as the “measure of motion” and our senses grasping many local motions.JD
Yes; and our grasping something is a process, and so, it is partly due to a continuous motion of parts in the Brain that we consciously perceive and understand, so to speak. It is the brain in motion which provides man a foundation for grasping physical reality; not the other way round. Through the union of mind and body the brain grounds us in physical time and space, and then feeds us images in such a way as to provide us coherent facts about physical reality; which in turn stimulates the development of mind and brain. It is a wonderful union of mind and physical expression I think. Its is an astonishing process indeed, which should make the agnostic wonder why the brain is so efficient at giving us true reality with out knowing how to. Is it a Coincidence? I think not. It is upon this axis of brain matter (a sort of time machine in fact) that we can coherently perceive the past and the future, and know thy self. Otherwise we would be static, knowing nothing and learning nothing. For God this isn’t a problem; for God is all- knowing; he is the root of knowledge and information. But it seems to me that incomplete knowledge (in the case of humans) can only gain knowledge by a process of time and space. Mind cannot be wholly identified with time and space accept via the brain.
 
Leave it to our finite minds to take “made in His image” literally.

We are not our bodies. It is not our physical form that is in His image, it is our souls.
True, but a our physical bodies allow us to be creative; it allows us to bring creativity into existence. So it seems, in some sense, even our bodies have a part to play in that image in a metaphorical kind of way?
 
M.O.M,

Are you saying the brain is something like a pattern-reciever-decoder and the mind is something like a coded-pattern-transmitter?

And the body is the animator of the soul?

:hmmm: Hmmm…intersting.
 
I can think of an orange; but it would be absurd of me to think that there is an actual orange located in my brain, and yet it would be equally absurd to claim that my idea of an orange does not exist.
What you have described is simply “abstraction”. If you had never encountered an orange in your life, and one had never been depicted or described to you, you could abstract an orange, but, it might look like and orange truck. Our analytical mind pulls up past images of actual oranges and “abstracts” their primary qualities and quantities - their determinates. Our mind might zero in on one image - perhaps a recent sighting of an orange - or, it might synthesize a number of past “frames” of oranges into one that is an “ideal” orange.
Out of nothing comes nothing; by that i mean, one could not think something that is nothing, for that is the same as not thinking at all. It does not exist physically, but it must exist spiritually.
Hmm. I conceive of nothingness as though I was looking out into space, a million miles from any solid object. I think of it as a deep blackness - so deep that any possible glimmer of light has been absorbed within a centimeter of its source. I think of it as devoid of any sensual impressions whatsoever. No color/visual, no tone/audio, no smell, no taste, no tactile, no light striking the optic nerve.

I conceive it to be a place in space where nothing exists. I define “place” as the innermost surface of a surrounding body. Thus, while nothing exists within that “place”, the “place” itself exists and is, or could be, real.

Nothingness from a spiritual perspective must be unending agony.
The same problem occurs with mind. If it cannot be identified with atoms, then it cannot be identified as a spatially locatable thing.
Do you not think it possible to conceive of the mind/brain relationship analogously, as me, or you, in a tight car. The car being the brain and the me (or you) being the mind?
When you speak to a human; you are speaking only first to the brain (which is the physical part of you); the brain then processes the information and stores some of it, and then it communicates with the transcendent self (which is the spiritual part of you). All this in a billionth of a second.
You might be interested to know that the video industry has actually calculated the number of “frames”, so to speak, that can strike the optic nerve and be transmitted into memory. It is 26 per second. There are several companies currently working on 3-D television, without the use of glasses. The process and technology exists, however its so expensive that its not on the market yet. But, the 26 frames per second was an integral breakthrough in its development.

God bless,
JD
 
M.O.M,

Are you saying the brain is something like a pattern-reciever-decoder and the mind is something like a coded-pattern-transmitter?

And the body is the animator of the soul?

:hmmm: Hmmm…intersting.
Hi Frank:

Good point. Thus the motion of a brain cannot be the mind’s or soul’s primary perceptic, can it? Do you think the mind/soul’s primary perceptic is that of it being a static, sort of a covert witness to exterior local motion?

God bless,
JD
 
Hi Frank:

Good point. Thus the motion of a brain cannot be the mind’s or soul’s primary perceptic, can it? Do you think the mind/soul’s primary perceptic is that of it being a static, sort of a covert witness to exterior local motion?

God bless,
JD
I’m not sure if I understand you completely. But in an effort to tie the two threads of God and Form and this one back together, I quoted in the Form thread.
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frankblahnik:
God shaped the universe with all its physical laws and filled it with His spiritual form/existence as an expression of His Love.
We as humans have a shape and the universe has a shape. Our shape if filled with form/existence and the universe is filled with form/existence. We are capable of expressing love through our thoughts and deeds, and God expressed love through his will to cause the universe to exist. In this way we are an image of God.

The infinity of the mind…hmmm. I’m not sure where you guys were going with this one. I can understand the perception of time through your movement of place through space, but what does that have to do with infinity of the mind. Time and space could all just be an illusion trapped in the infinity of the mind. I don’t know…

Back to reality as we know it…by saying the body is the animator of the soul, maybe one could say the brain is the tool used by the mind…or something like that.

You are smarter than me. Where are we going with this thread?

JD - what did you mean by all that “motion of the brain” “primary perceptic” stuff? I didn’t understand.
 
I’m not sure if I understand you completely.
What I meant was, which comes first: 1) our awareness of the mind in motion (thinking), or, 2) our awareness of exterior local motion. You seemed to indicate that you thought the first thing our minds grasped - as soon as we could see - was (local) motion outside of our minds.

I think this is correct.
But in an effort to tie the two threads of God and Form and this one back together, I quoted in the Form thread.We as humans have a shape and the universe has a shape. Our shape if filled with form/existence and the universe is filled with form/existence. We are capable of expressing love through our thoughts and deeds, and God expressed love through his will to cause the universe to exist. In this way we are an image of God.
Are you saying that “love” and “existence” are synonymous?
The infinity of the mind…hmmm. I’m not sure where you guys were going with this one. I can understand the perception of time through your movement of place through space, but what does that have to do with infinity of the mind. Time and space could all just be an illusion trapped in the infinity of the mind. I don’t know…
I’m not sure what this was about either :o I’ll check.
Back to reality as we know it…by saying the body is the animator of the soul, maybe one could say the brain is the tool used by the mind…or something like that.
My position is opposite this. I think the soul animates us.
You are smarter than me. Where are we going with this thread?
I highly doubt I’m any smarter than you, but, thank you saying that.

God bless,
JD
 
JD - I may be lost again, but are we talking about a newborn or about the relationship of mind,brain-soul,body. :yukonjoe:

Lets look at it from the perspective of a newborn.:coffeeread:
What I meant was, which comes first: 1) our awareness of the mind in motion (thinking), or, 2) our awareness of exterior local motion. You seemed to indicate that you thought the first thing our minds grasped - as soon as we could see - was (local) motion outside of our minds.
or, 3) our desperate grasping for love. How many parents and adults hold a new born baby and feel a need to give them all the love they can, almost like the baby is drawing the love from you and you are freely giving it.

This transfer of love could fuel the soul of the baby and trigger the mind in motion. Once aware of the mind in motion able to animate the body.
Are you saying that “love” and “existence” are synonymous?
Love would be the fuel for existence.
My position is opposite this. I think the soul animates us.
I to believe the soul animates us as well. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
Does this sound about right?..

God shaped the universe, kind of like how a mother shapes a newborn in her womb.

God filled the universe with his form/existence as an expression of His love. AND Since Gods form/existence fills the universe, his existence fills the newborn with form/existence giving it a soul.

The newborns father/mother can take the new born in his/her arms in fill the babies soul with love.

The love filled soul of the new born puts its mind in motion, and once aware of his/her mind in motion the newborn is able to animate the body.

I’m at work and just throwing out some random thoughts and ideas
 
What you have described is simply “abstraction”. If you had never encountered an orange in your life, and one had never been depicted or described to you, you could abstract an orange, but, it might look like and orange truck. Our analytical mind pulls up past images of actual oranges and “abstracts” their primary qualities and quantities - their determinates. Our mind might zero in on one image - perhaps a recent sighting of an orange - or, it might synthesize a number of past “frames” of oranges into one that is an “ideal” orange.
Information from the exterior realm travels on particles of light; which are then converted into an image of exterior reality. In other words “Real-time/Objective reality”, does not exist in your mind. We only ever get a secondary depiction of things which is generated in the non-abstract part of our perception, that part which gives us a steady stream of non-negotiable data. Much of the information that we receive from the exterior realm fails to register. In other words we do not see everything that exists objectively, because it’s likely that either the brain can’t convert it, or that we lose some of the information. It’s quite possible that the exterior world, as it is presented to us, is something like a holographic projection based upon an objective-abstract form of information, which is in turn made up of logical mathematical equations that represent particular qualities. The brain then converts these qualities into various physical constructs and dimensions that such qualities will allow; presenting to our actual minds a world of qualities accompanied by physical dimensions and locations.
So when Pythagoras said that the world is numbers, he might not be far from the truth. This may explain some of the odd occurrences in the quantum world, if we view reality like this? I hope this doesn’t sound dumb.

So far as the mind is concerned, we abstractedly contemplate that which we have seen, converting information stored in our memories according to coded sequences, into immaterial abstracts. All our memories exist abstractly and transcendently and are assigned physic markers in the brain. Sometimes these markers are damaged or destroyed, and thus, we cannot recall our memories.

Just like God caused the Universe. We can caused into being, to a limited degree, are own non-spatial abstract ideas, cutting and pasting according to what we wish to create. What we cannot do, is manifest them as physical entities by thoughts alone. Imagine if we could. The world be chaos!
Hmm. I conceive of nothingness as though I was looking out into space, a million miles from any solid object. I think of it as a deep blackness - so deep that any possible glimmer of light has been absorbed within a centimeter of its source. I think of it as devoid of any sensual impressions whatsoever. No color/visual, no tone/audio, no smell, no taste, no tactile, no light striking the optic nerve.
Everything you have just thought of and talked about, is actually something. A “deep blackness” is something. Nothing, as a real concept, has no description; it cannot be thought of, because it is not a being of any kind. When scientist talk of quantum events coming out of nothing, this is a misleading paradox. What they really mean, is that they cannot determine the cause in terms of classical physics. Quantum particles come in and out of existence according to a “fluctuations” of energy–which is something. It cannot come in to being if there is no being. It is logically impossible to know that something has come out of nothing.
I conceive it to be a place in space where nothing exists.
A place is something even if it is empty. It has dimensions.
I define “place” as the innermost surface of a surrounding body.
A surrounding body is something. Nothing cannot exist.
Thus, while nothing exists within that “place”, the “place” itself exists and is, or could be, real.
precisely; the place exists, even though there is nothing in that place. Therefore it is not completly nothing.
Nothingness from a spiritual perspective must be unending agony.
Agony presupposes something which feels agony.
Do you not think it possible to conceive of the mind/brain relationship analogously, as me, or you, in a tight car. The car being the brain and the me (or you) being the mind?
Yes. But the brain does some of the driving as well as the mind. They are dependent upon each other for the actuality of a living person.
You might be interested to know that the video industry has actually calculated the number of “frames”, so to speak, that can strike the optic nerve and be transmitted into memory. It is 26 per second. There are several companies currently working on 3-D television, without the use of glasses. The process and technology exists, however its so expensive that its not on the market yet. But, the 26 frames per second was an integral breakthrough in its development.
Its very interesting that a lot of the science fiction ideas of the past are becoming a reality; but a poor person like my self, will never have one.

God bless.
 
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