SPLIT: "Full of Grace" =sinless?

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Not caritow but kecharitomene.

The original text of Luke 1:28 is Greek loosely translated as “Greetings, you who are highly favored!” in NIV. In fact the text in Greek is “Chaire, Kecharitomene” (translated in English as "Hail, Full of Grace "based on the Latin translation in Vulgate). Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced” (bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166). Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175).

You seem to be reading Mr. Keating. I am always very pleased when someone brings discussions to our board about the Greek lanaguage. Alas, I have not even yet learn the Script. I defer to the following concerning your presentation​

Always giving credit where credit is due
aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1455
However, if we look at Mr. Keating’s presentation, it seems clear that he is basing his interpretation not primarily upon the lexical meaning of the word “caritoo”, but upon the form it takes in Luke 1:28, that being the perfect passive participle, “kecharitomene”. Note that Keating alleges that the “Greek indicates a perfection of grace.” He seems to be playing on the perfect tense of the participle. But, as anyone trained in Greek is aware, there is no way to jump from the perfect tense of a participle to the idea that the Greek “indicates a perfection of grace.” First, participles derive their time element from the main verb of the sentence. In this case, however, we have a vocative participle, and no main verb in what is in actuality simply a greeting. (The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should say a great deal in and of itself.) The main emphasis of a participle is found in its aspect, a present participle providing the idea of continuing action, the aorist undefined action, and the perfect completed action with abiding results to the present. What are we to do with the perfect tense of the participle, then? We might take it as an intensive perfect, one that emphatically states that something is, but most likely it is simply emphasizing the certainty of the favor given, just as the perfect passive participle in Matthew 25:34 (“Come, you who are blessed by my Father . . .”), 1 Thessalonians 1:4 (“knowing, brethren beloved by God . . .”), and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord . . .”) emphasizes the completedness of the action as well. No one would argue that in Matthew 25:34, Jesus means to tell us that the righteous have a “perfection of blessedness that indicates that they had this perfection throughout their life, for a perfection must be perfect not only intensively, but extensively” (to borrow from Mr. Keating’s presentation). The application of Keating’s thoughts to any of the above passages results in foolishness. Hence, it is obvious that when Keating says that the Greek indicates that Mary “must have been in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called `full of grace’ or to have been filled with divine favor in a singular way,” he is, in point of fact, not deriving this from the Greek at all, but from his own theology, which he then reads back into the text. There is simply nothing in the Greek to support the pretentious interpretation put forward by Keating and Madrid. Therefore, Madrid’s statement, “This is a recognition of her sinless state,” falls for lack of support. The angel addressed Mary as “highly favored,” for, as he himself said, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God” (Luke 1:30).
To paraphrase the text in a way faithful to its meaning, it should be rendered as “Hail , completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” The translation “Hail, full of grace” encapsulates the Greek meaning. Understood in that sense, sin, in any way and in whatever form, has no room in Mary–from the first moment of her conception until she was still on earth. How was it possible that she stayed sinless? That’s the grace of the Immaculate Conception–Mary, being preserved from all stains of original sin through the foreseen merits of Christ’s victorious Redemptive Work, was enabled by God to perfectly give her consent to be the mother of the Son of God and provide Him a nature without original sin so that He might be like us in all things except sin.

How was this possible?

Well, God is mighty that’s why He has great things for her (Luke 1:49)

The Immaculate Conception is above all the exaltation of Christ’s redemptive work. It shows that His victory has even a preventive and retroactive effect aside from being curative, e.i. cured after contracting original sin. We often hear in medical circles “Prevention is better than cure.”
I have to admit, your paraphrase stands the text on its head as none other. To step from being “favored” to sinless is by no means the worst stretch of imagination I have encountered so far.
 
Following your thought,God could have saved mankind without the Son of God becoming man and die on the cross–as the only sacrifice that can satisfy the Divine justice. But God’s way is different. He designed that the Second Divine Person become man thru a virgin, teach true religion, die on the cross, and rise up in three days.

can you prove from the scripture that the Holy Spirit dwells in sinful man?
Second Divine Person? I will assume you must mean the First Divine as God the Father, the second as His Son the Christ.

Rm3:23 …all have sinned. This must include all of mankind including me. I am chief sinner of them all, this includes all people I know.

Eph3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

I have faith and believe in Christ. So I can say that He dwells in my heart.

Col3:16 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you,…

I am sinnful man and yet Christ word dwells within me.
jn1:1…the Word was God

Since the Word dwells in me, I think it is safe to say just from these few scriptures the Holy Spirit dwells in sinful man.

Blessings,
Len
 
Col3:16 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you,…

I am sinful man and yet Christ word dwells within me.
jn1:1…the Word was God

Since the Word dwells in me, I think it is safe to say just from these few scriptures the Holy Spirit dwells in sinful man.

Blessings,
Len
Lucifer can even recite all the texts (God’s word) in the bible of any translation but it doesn’t make him a dwelling house of the Holy Spirit. He can pretend as an angel of light (as he was) but it doesn’t not make him a dwelling house of the Holy Spirit. He can also say, “I am a sinful angel and Christ’s word dwells in me”, but it doesn’t make him a dwelling house of the Holy Spirit.

A person in the act of fornication has not the Holy Spirit. That is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You can enumerate the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit. If what you are seeing are not the fruit of the Holy Spirit but the contrary, it is the evil spirit that is dwelling in that person.

By their fruit you will recognize them (Matthew 7:16).
 

You seem to be reading Mr. Keating. I am always very pleased when someone brings discussions to our board about the Greek lanaguage. Alas, I have not even yet learn the Script. I defer to the following concerning your presentation​

Always giving credit where credit is due
…

I have to admit, your paraphrase stands the text on its head as none other. To step from being “favored” to sinless is by no means the worst stretch of imagination I have encountered so far.
(I think, in this forum, our attitude is to scrutinize the idea being presented on its face value regardless of its being an adoption of someone else’s idea or not; besides, who can claim of an original idea here? Even your protestantism is not you own. So, its pointless here to give credit where credit is due unless one is specifically referring to a particular source using verbatim the contained idea.)

I can understand now your difficulty in interpreting Luke 1:28. You are using NIV’s “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you” or the NASB’s (even of lesser impact) “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you” or of NLT’s “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!” or ESV’s “Greetings,O favored one,the Lord is with you!”

In Douay-Rheims Bible:

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

There is an abysmal difference of meaning and impact between Mary being “favored” and being “full of grace.”

To say that Mary being favored doesn’t necessarily mean she is endowed with grace of sanctity. It can just mean that God gave Mary a favor of choosing her to be the Mother of God-Man. That is certainly a great thing that God had done for her (Luke 1:49). But, actually, the whole passage is:
“Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name.”

“Great things” is plural. Right? What then are the other thing/s that the Mighty God had done to her? What could that be? What could that be other than…being immaculately conceived and becoming a mother while remaining a virgin?

The original language of Luke 1:28 is Greek. The translation of kecharitomene is better captured in “full of grace” than in “favored” or “highly favored.” If you accept “full of grace,” we don’t need to elucidate Luke 1:49 since being “full of grace” excludes any lack of it in whatever degree–there is nothing more that can be added. It is simply full.

Moreover, the fact remains that kecharitomene is more. This word include time element which is not secured well in “full of grace.” This word kecharitomene means that God endowed Mary with grace even before the angel’s annunciation; His endowment of grace to Mary is continuous.
 
She is in need of a Saviour because she is human, as a human she falls under the same catagory we all do.(Rom3:23)

Her gifts and everyone else for that matter are given by the Father from above.
And so, God intervened and preserved Mary free from the stain of original sin. The Church does not deny that Mary was in need of redemption along with the rest of humankind. She received God’s saving sanctifying grace (a free divine gift) at the moment of her conception, and she fully cooperated with that grace throughout her entire life, being destined to be the mother of our Lord.

“My ‘soul’ proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my saviour. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now all generations will call me ‘blessed’. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.” {Luke 1, 46-49}

“Rather ‘blessed’ are those who hear the word of God and keep it.” {Luke 11, 28}

“The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary; if any stain had disfigured her ‘soul’, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.”
Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
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