SPLIT: Going where I do not want to go? (Part 2)

[Love_is_Patient]

With my answer I am being honest and mean to offend no RCC people here:

I do not like what I see on the other side of the fence. I live in one of the largest Catholic Arhdiocese in the country (I have been told) and half of my family is Catholic (my fathers side). I personally know many catholics, but know of no Catholic (literally) who I think practices or knows their faith well enough to tell me what transubstantiation means (It all seems to just be their cultural thing). Evangelicals are spiritually alive and with the RCC I see spiritual death and I fear to bring my family over (my wife is a fatihful woman who submits to her husband as told by Scripture and would go where I lead).

-Tim

Ok, so you know some Catholics who aren’t living their faith. That’s terrible, I agree.

But I bet if you dig deeper, if you were to get involved with a parish, you’d find the group that gets together to pray the rosary before Mass on Sunday, the men and women who teach CCD every Sunday, the teenagers who are proud to live their faith and love their Lifeteen Masses, the dedicated bunch who attend daily Mass, those who love to go to Adoration, and etc.

The Catholic Church won’t lead you to spiritual death: re-read John 6:51-55

“51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.” (Douay-Rheims Bible)

If you join the Catholic Church, you will receive the Body and Blood of Christ. How can you get more spiritually alive that than?!

I pray that you go wherever the Holy Spirit is leading you.

 

[cmancone]

I spent the first 18 years of my life as a dedicated Catholic. I attended church faithfully every week, went to Catholic school, and learned a lot about my religion (at the time). I say this not to brag - I don’t consider any of these facts to credit me anything - I say it to be clear that I know what it is I’m talking about. I’m not just making up stuff.

1. The NT Epistles (especially Romans) screams Sola Fide to me. The RCC means of justification is confusing and awkward: If you are lucky enough (a phrase I know many will hate) to die in “a state of grace” you get to burn your venial sins away in purgatory then go to heaven. The RCC believes in salvation by grace, but discredits itself in that claim with its list of dos and don’ts (that effect salvation) while you must DO the sacraments to get that grace (it isn’t free). Can someone please clarify as much as possible and reconcile salvation by grace through faith with the RCC rituals and requirements?

In my opinion, one of the most dangerous parts of the Roman Catholic church is exactly this. RCC has become a rules-based religion. It operates not according to grace, but according to man based rules. To be a good RCC you HAVE to go to church every week, take confession regularly, you can’t eat meat on fridays during lent, you have to genuflect properly when getting into your pew, and you have to do many other things that are not the laws of God, but are the rules of men. Paul says it all in Galatians 5:

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Paul wasn’t just talking about circumcision, he was talking about living according to the law. This refers to the RCC “law” just as much as it does to OT law. The set of RCC practices have truly become a system of “law” as surely as the laws of the pharisees in Jesus time had. They are a set of rules created by men that superceed the rules of God. God commands us to live freely under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not according to the laws of men. This is the same thing he talked about in 1 Corinthians 10. We are to live freely with our conscience guided by the Holy Spirit. This is not the model lived by the RCC.

The danger of any rules based religion is two fold. First, it makes our salvation depended on our own actions, not the grace of God. Second, it places an artificial barrier between us and God. God seeks to have a personal relationship with us, and it’s hard to be “personal” with a God when you can only approach him after you have gotten dressed up, gone to confession, and gotten on your knees to be with him. God wants to relate to us as we are, not through a set of rules. The RCC “laws” but distance between us and God that shouldn’t be there.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I spent the first 18 years of my life as a dedicated Catholic. I attended church faithfully every week, went to Catholic school, and learned a lot about my religion (at the time). I say this not to brag - I don’t consider any of these facts to credit me anything - I say it to be clear that I know what it is I’m talking about. I’m not just making up stuff.

In my opinion, one of the most dangerous parts of the Roman Catholic church is exactly this. RCC has become a rules-based religion. It operates not according to grace, but according to man based rules. To be a good RCC you HAVE to go to church every week, take confession regularly, you can’t eat meat on fridays during lent, you have to genuflect properly when getting into your pew, and you have to do many other things that are not the laws of God, but are the rules of men. Paul says it all in Galatians 5:

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Paul wasn’t just talking about circumcision, he was talking about living according to the law. This refers to the RCC “law” just as much as it does to OT law. The set of RCC practices have truly become a system of “law” as surely as the laws of the pharisees in Jesus time had. They are a set of rules created by men that superceed the rules of God. God commands us to live freely under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not according to the laws of men. This is the same thing he talked about in 1 Corinthians 10. We are to live freely with our conscience guided by the Holy Spirit. This is not the model lived by the RCC.

The danger of any rules based religion is two fold. First, it makes our salvation depended on our own actions, not the grace of God. Second, it places an artificial barrier between us and God. God seeks to have a personal relationship with us, and it’s hard to be “personal” with a God when you can only approach him after you have gotten dressed up, gone to confession, and gotten on your knees to be with him. God wants to relate to us as we are, not through a set of rules. The RCC “laws” but distance between us and God that shouldn’t be there.

Thank you. You have proven how little you actually understood the faith you were taught. What you just described sounds nothing like the RCC I know.

If you are going to meet the President or some other important person, wouldn’t you shower and dress a little nicer than you would if you were working in the yard? Likewise, if you’re going to meet with God, wouldn’t you WANT to make sure you’re dressed appropriately, both inside and out? Yes, God loves us just as we are, but He also loves us too much to allow us to stay that way. The “rules” you describe are Christ-ordained (not man-made) ways for us to conform to His image and draw closer to Him.
Why would you NOT want to be at Church every Sunday? What would possibly be better than having an encounter with the Living Christ?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I spent the first 18 years of my life as a dedicated Catholic. I attended church faithfully every week, went to Catholic school, and learned a lot about my religion (at the time). I say this not to brag - I don’t consider any of these facts to credit me anything - I say it to be clear that I know what it is I’m talking about. I’m not just making up stuff.

No offense, but it appears you had poor Catholic faith formation because your following comments are half-truths at best.

In my opinion, one of the most dangerous parts of the Roman Catholic church is exactly this. RCC has become a rules-based religion. It operates not according to grace, but according to man based rules. To be a good RCC you [1] HAVE to go to church every week, [2] take confession regularly, [3] you can’t eat meat on fridays during lent, [4] you have to genuflect properly when getting into your pew, [5] and you have to do many other things that are not the laws of God, but are the rules of men. Paul says it all in Galatians 5:

[1]- Are you saying going to Church once EVERY WEEK is a bad thing?
[2]- You ONLY have to go to confession if you are in a state of moral sin (Jn 20:21-23). It first and foremost a place to heal.
[3]- that is a custom done for a few weeks each year, and only one day a week, hardly can be considered “legalism”.
[4]- If you understood WHY you were genuflecting it would actually make sense, yet you dont even mention why, the Tabernacle. The tabernacle holds the Eucharist (Jn 6:53-55)!
[5]- Like what? So far you have said nothing. Further, dont confuse Jewish legaism with the fact we need SOME rules and regulations in our everyday lives.

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

That is talking about Jewish legalism, it dose not mean “no rules”.

Paul wasn’t just talking about circumcision, he was talking about living according to the law. This refers to the RCC “law” just as much as it does to OT law. The set of RCC practices have truly become a system of “law” as surely as the laws of the pharisees in Jesus time had. They are a set of rules created by men that superceed the rules of God. God commands us to live freely under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not according to the laws of men. This is the same thing he talked about in 1 Corinthians 10. We are to live freely with our conscience guided by the Holy Spirit. This is not the model lived by the RCC.

No, what you are painting is a “no rules” Church and Christian lifestyle.

The danger of any rules based religion is two fold. First, it makes our salvation depended on our own actions, not the grace of God. Second, it places an artificial barrier between us and God. God seeks to have a personal relationship with us, and it’s hard to be “personal” with a God when you can only approach him after you have gotten dressed up, gone to confession, and gotten on your knees to be with him. God wants to relate to us as we are, not through a set of rules. The RCC “laws” but distance between us and God that shouldn’t be there.

Look at what you are saying. On one hand you want salvation to be guaranteed, on the other hand there is “danger”. Either salvation is dependent on our own actions (as Paul explicitly says in Gal 5) or it aint.

 

[cmancone]

I see I should have been more clear. I stand by what I said, and think it is an accurate representation of the Catholic Church. However, I don’t have time to respond at the moment. Later tonight I’ll start a new post describing what I mean, and post a link to it to make sure everyone can read my response.

 

[jmcrae]

I see I should have been more clear. I stand by what I said, and think it is an accurate representation of the Catholic Church. However, I don’t have time to respond at the moment. Later tonight I’ll start a new post describing what I mean, and post a link to it to make sure everyone can read my response.

Not at all. The rules of the Church are like the rules of the road. They may seem restrictive at times (after all, Jesus never said we couldn’t drive our cars at 90 miles an hour past a school during recess time, right?) but ultimately, they are there for our freedom - so that we and everyone travelling with us can arrive safely at our destination.

 

[VociMike]

With my answer I am being honest and mean to offend no RCC people here:

I do not like what I see on the other side of the fence. I live in one of the largest Catholic Arhdiocese in the country (I have been told) and half of my family is Catholic (my fathers side). I personally know many catholics, but know of no Catholic (literally) who I think practices or knows their faith well enough to tell me what transubstantiation means (It all seems to just be their cultural thing). Evangelicals are spiritually alive and with the RCC I see spiritual death and I fear to bring my family over (my wife is a fatihful woman who submits to her husband as told by Scripture and would go where I lead).

But you associate with a very different kind of Catholic than Evangelical. You associate with Evangelicals based on what they believe and what they practice. It’s a self-selecting association. But you associate with Catholics based on the chance of family relationships. What if it were the other way around? What if you were an active, orthodox Catholic? Would you not expect in your Catholic life to see lots of other active, orthodox Catholics in your sphere? And if you were only related to Evangelicals by blood, well then, who knows what you’d see on that side?

You have to compare apples to apples.

 

[Catholic_Rube]

I don’t think that faith and works can be separated; they are two sides of the same coin. It is really strange to me that so many evangelicals seem so focused on this issue, since it also seems to me that evangelicals are some of the most “works oriented” people I know–and that’s a good thing.

Read the scripture passage from Matthew 25 mentioned by geezerbob. In this account of the Last Judgment, and how we will be judged–an account given by Jesus himself–it sure sounds like everything depends on our works.

I totally agree with you faith and works. It even says in the Bible you are not saved by faith alone, BUT by faith and works…