SPLIT: How is a Catholic saved?

[Beth_Martin]

Thanks everyone for the discussion and hope to see all of you around on another topic. May God bless each of you this day and every day and may the peace of the Lord settle in your hearts.

Beth

 

[fxcc]

You missed the gospel in its entirety just by the last sentance. God rewards a Christian for works He prepared as heavenly rewards, not eternal life, that, eternal life is given on the sole basis of His grace, not because you have pleased Him. You cannot work enough to please Him to have eternal life. Have you ever heard of rewards in heaven outside of eternal life, which is not a reward but a gift of His grace and His mercy?

What are Sacramennts if not works; do you not work hard in preparation of them and then going through the performance of them and as a result of all that work & preparation; you then are expecting a reward from God in the form of “saving grace”; that is no longer grace but a wage…Pauls very point. What Jesus said He “desires compassion and NOT sacrafice.”

Beth

Another bucket load of hilarious humbug, but we’ve come to expect an hourly joke by now now I guess…

“God rewards a Christian for works He prepared as heavenly rewards, not eternal life”

“Works he prepared as heavenly rewards”? Huh? Come again? I didn’t get that! Gobbledy gook which he prepared as gobbledy gook? Is that what that means? Ah, I see!

Even a 30 second exercise in Googling would inform the most ignorant Christian, non Christian or atheist that Sacraments are not “works” but external signs of God’s inward graces to man.

As for God rewarding good works with “blessings on earth and **not **eternal life” that smacks of another heresy for easy believers: the Gospel of Plenty, which teaches that we supposedly reap rewards in this life for our faithfulness to God.

I’ll let Jesus speak on the subject, for all but the deafest among us. For the dumbest of the dummies (or rather, the most obstinate of the obstinate), the following is what the Lord will say when He welcomes His faithful servants into eternal life:

Matthew 25
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Isn’t this amazing how someone who will not obey God’s true Church will spend their entire lives imagining promises which the Lord never ever made (e.g. salvation by faith alone) while trying desperately to invalidate the ones He did make (e.g. heaven for good works)?

But then we’ve all heard the warnings about those who call good evil and evil good…

**Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? **

Well, if it is only Truth that sets us free from the bondage of sin and eternal death, then this entire thread should give everyone some very good pointers as to where that Truth and salvation are to be found.

 

[fxcc]

Show me just one who has kept the commandments besides Jesus and I will believe you.

Shall we start with His Blessed Mother? The Immaculate Sinless Virgin Mary?
Or shall we look in Scripture for others who were blameless in the sight of God?

 

[Des]

Shall we start with His Blessed Mother? The Immaculate Sinless Virgin Mary?
Or shall we look in Scripture for others who were blameless in the sight of God?

That’s right fxcc. As well as the Virgins of the Apocalypse who are spotless with no lie in them, that Beth seemed all to happy to pass over along with the other verse I gave her telling us how John the Baptist’s parents kept all the Commandments. One could also say John the Baptist never sinned as well since He was filled with the Holy Spirit even before His birth.

Beth would have to have known the hearts of everybody that lived in the history of mankind to make the claim that everybody has committed a personal sin which is quite silly really.

Also, we can look at people who have sinned in the past but have conquered it later in their lives. I’m certain there are many Saints of the Church who have achieved this. Of course without the Holy Spirit, this is not possible.

 

[fxcc]

That’s right fxcc. As well as the Virgins of the Apocalypse who are spotless with no lie in them, that Beth seemed all too happy to pass over along with the other verse I gave her telling us how John the Baptist’s parents kept all the Commandments. One could also say John the Baptist never sinned as well since He was filled with the Holy Spirit even before His birth.

Beth would have to have known the hearts of everybody that lived in the history of mankind to make the claim that everybody has committed a personal sin which is quite silly really.

Also, we can look at people who have sinned in the past but have conquered it later in their lives. I’m certain there are many Saints of the Church who have achieved this. Of course without the Holy Spirit, this is not possible.

Martin Luther taught the heresy that sin has so totally vanquished man’s free will that he is no longer able to choose good over evil and therefore has to sin. The Church, on the other hand, teaches that man still retains the will to reject sin and can do so by cooperating, heroically if need be, with grace. Even if few do so, it doesn’t alter the fact that man can. Indeed, in the Catholic Rite of Baptism we are commanded to: Take this white garment, and see that you carry it without stain before the judgment seat of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that you may have eternal life.

That sinlessness is not an impossibility for man is alluded to throughout scripture. But most Protestants and fundamentalists pretend not to know of these verses because then one of the main arguments (“all have sinned”) against the sinlessness of the Virigin Mary would collapse!

When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. (Gen 5:21-24)

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless.” (Gen 17:1)

You must be blameless before the LORD your God. (Deu 18:13)

I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin. (2 Sam 22:24)

In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. (Job 1:1)

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” (Job 1:8)

He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from his heart (Psa 15:2)

I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin. (Psa 18:23)

Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then will I be blameless, innocent of great transgression. (Psa 19:13)

Vindicate me, O LORD, for I have led a blameless life; I have trusted in the LORD without wavering. (Psa 26:1)

But I lead a blameless life; redeem me and be merciful to me. (Psa 26:11)

Consider the blameless, observe the upright; there is a future for the man of peace. (Psa 37:37)

For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless. (Psa 84:11)

I will be careful to lead a blameless life—when will you come to me? I will walk in my house with blameless heart. (Psa 101:2)

Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the LORD. (Psa 119:1)

He holds victory in store for the upright, he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless, (Prov 2:7)

The LORD detests men of perverse heart but he delights in those whose ways are blameless. (Prov 11:20)

The righteous man leads a blameless life; blessed are his children after him. (Prov 20:7)

He whose walk is blameless is kept safe, but he whose ways are perverse will suddenly fall. (Prov 28:18)

He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:8)

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. (Eph 1:4)

so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, (Phil 1:10)

so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe (Phil 2:15)

May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones. (1 Th 3:13)

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Th 5:23)

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (2 Pet 3:14)

No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless. (Rev 14:5)

Indeed, a non Catholic, Ellen G White, who founded the Seventh Day Adventists, wrote these strong words against Luther’s heresy: “He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep Him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance to the kingdom of God.” Ellen G. White, Review & Herald, March 10, 1904) “There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christ-like life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.” Ellen G. White, Desire of Ages, p.311

By scripture alone, let alone Sacred Tradition, Magisterial teaching or sound reasoning, the false doctrines of the likes of Beth Martin are easily destroyed.

 

[paul_c]

I would say if you do a study on how the word repentance is used throughout the NT; you would drawl a different conclusion. For one cannot enter the Kingdom of God without a genuine heart of repentance. Based on your thinking and knowing how God views just a single sin, the two do not correspond for God sees lying as much a sin as if I went to the supermarket and had two bottle of $1.00 water sitting under the cart, then got home and discovered I had not paid for them. Well it is just $2.00, but since I am aware of it I would go back and bring it to the stores attention and pay the $2.00, but let’s say i did realize it and did nothing. Will God then remove my citizenship from heaven? The answer would be yes if you believe one can lose their salvation and the answer would be no if one believes we are sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of Jesus Christ, which is what the Bible teaches.

Listen to what the holy Spirit says through the apostle Peter: ***The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. *** – May I say that repentence is the essential element of genuine faith and in this verse it is synonymous with salvation.

If one came to the Lord and was accepted by the Lord to the one who asked with a heart of repentance, will that uconfessed sin now deliver one out of HIs hands?

You may want to see how repentance is used throughout the NT. I will email you a link you can look and make a great Bible study from. Just say the word and I will send you the link.

Here are a few passages you can preview if you like.
Romans 2:4-- "Do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?"

***Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”-***Matt. 3:1-2

"And from that time, that is the beginning of His ministry, Jesus began to preach and say, Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." -Matthew 4:17 (Jesus speaking)

1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? 5 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” -Luke 13

Martin Luther

1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, in saying, “Repent ye, etc.,” intended that the whole life of his believers on earth should be a constant penance.
2. Therefore mortification continues as long as hatred of oneself continues, that is to say, true inward penance lasts until entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luther had it right, the Christian life is one that never stops being sorrowful for ones sins regardless of size.

My honest assessment is that most people never enter the Kingdom of God that know all the right things, but never came to Him with true and genuine heart of repentance and humility; rather they perform externals that are not a true and genuine inward faith that God accepts as true repentance.

If I speak with someone about God, I want to know two things right off 1) Do you believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God 2) How has your life changed in regards to sin.

Tell me Beth,
If salvation is by Faith alone, then sin doesn’t matter . Why would we need to repent?

However, if sin does matter in terms of salvation, then the need to repent is obvious.

 

[fxcc]

Based on your thinking and knowing how God views just a single sin, the two do not correspond for God sees lying as much a sin as if I went to the supermarket and had two bottle of $1.00 water sitting under the cart, then got home and discovered I had not paid for them. Well it is just $2.00, but since I am aware of it I would go back and bring it to the stores attention and pay the $2.00, but let’s say i did realize it and did nothing. Will God then remove my citizenship from heaven? The answer would be yes if you believe one can lose their salvation and the answer would be no if one believes we are sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of Jesus Christ, which is what the Bible teaches.

Another lie about the true faith.
Nobody loses heaven over a two dollar offence. It is a venial sin.
Heaven can only be lost by mortal sin, which requires the matter of the sin to be grave, for knowledge of the sin to be adequate and for one to give one’s free and full consent to the sinful action.
As for being sealed, etc… happy go lucky Protestants, who imagine that they’re already guaranteed heaven by such a sealing, should ask themselves why Christ warned so many of the people who He healed to “Go and sin no more.” What had they to lose?

 

[Des]

Based on your thinking and knowing how God views just a single sin, the two do not correspond for God sees lying as much a sin as if I went to the supermarket and had two bottle of $1.00 water sitting under the cart, then got home and discovered I had not paid for them.

Then by this rational, a child murdering thieving rapist who rapes and kills as much as you sin daily or weekly and believes in all the things you do but repents daily, always was and always is saved even during his/her murdering raping sprees? lol You just have to know how ludicrous this sounds.

Also, according to this logic of yours, we will always sin because of our human nature and Jesus’ Sacrifice is not sufficient to help us remove sin completely. So with rape being the same as a white lie, the Holy Spirit is too weak to help him overcome his lustful desires and that’s fine because he can blame it all on his human nature.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Beth, does it make any sense to you that God would execute His plan of salvation as He did, to include the death of His only begotten Son and then have people run willy nilly all over the place with no set authority? Consider, if you will, the Old Testament. You know that it has been said that the OT prefigures the NT so lets look at God’s model of the church in the OT. There the church was the nation of Israel and every step of the way from Abraham down to Moses to the prohets and the Davidic kingship, God provided an earthly leader for that OT church. Did He have to? No, but He choose to. For their part, all the time the OT church followed God’s earthly leader they prospered. The only times they suffered was when they chose to go against what God’s earthly leader was telling them. The Davidic kingship was set up in the OT and we know that Jesus was born into the lineage of the Davidic kings. The kings of Israel had stewards that oversaw different aspects of the kingdom and there were twelve of these stewards, one for every tribe. Of these twelve stewards the King would select one to be the chief steward who would act on behalf of the king and as such he would have the authority of the king. Isaiah 22:22 speaks of this chief steward:

“And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.” [Is 22:22]

The OT chief steward held authority to lock or unlock. Now fast forward to the NT. Here we find Jesus, the Davidic king, picking 12 stewards [disciples/apostles] and from them He chooses one to be the chief steward and names him Peter. And Jesus says of this chief steward:

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” [Mt16:19]

Here Simon Peter is given the keys to the House of God that what ever he binds [locks] no one can loose and whatever he looses [unlocks] no one can bind. The similarity between the NT and the OT is not a coincidence.

Now the OT chief steward occupied an office that he was appointed to. It was not something that was past down in the family as was the kingship. Someone else could be appointed as chief steward. And so it is in the NT. Peter the first chief steward is martyred and another chief steward replaces him and down through the generations we have the succession of chief stewards of the NT church. It mirrors the OT perfectly. There is nothing in protestantism even remotely like it.

Next let’s look at scripture. How do you know that the 27 books of the NT are inspired? The fact is that Catholic Bishops in the late fourth century decided they were. The church of that time accepted their decision and in the process accepted their authority to make that decision. Those same books are in every bible whether it be protestant or Catholic. But wonder if, as protestants claim, that the Catholic Church did not have any authority. What assurance do we have then that those books are indeed inspired? Can you or anyone else prove any book is inspired? Try proving the letter to Philomen is inspired. You can’t, neither can I. With no authority that decision made so long ago becomes one of a mere guess, an opinion that anyone could either accept or refute. Protestants have accepted that decision without exception and in doing so have done what the church of the ;late fourth century did,; they accepted the authority of those making the decision. Again you have to face the fact that the canon of the NT was set by the Catholic Church 1100 years before there was even one sola scripturist on the face of the earth. Accepting that canon is a de facto acceptance of the authority of the Catholic Church to make that decision. You may not like that as it differs from what you want to believe but if you are indeed in a search for truth then you have to be honest enough to accept truth. For the truth can only make you free.

continued next post

 

[inkaneer]

continuing

There is no freedom in protestantism. That may sound illogical but tell me when is a train most free when it is on the tracks and able to do what a train does or is it more free when it leaves the track and becomes a mass of twisted metal? Or take the case of sheep since that is used in scripture as a description of the followers of Christ. Are sheep more free in the herd under the care of the shepherd or are they more free outside the herd among the wolves? In John 21:15-17 Jesus told Peter that he was to feed Jesus’ flock and Peter was to tend to Jesus’ flock.

He did set the authority; His name is Jesus and He works via the Holy Spirit through each believer just as He has said. The church is the collection of the believers and He expects us all to treat each other as brothers and sisters from the least to the greatest; there is no regular saint verses a super saint.

By the way to show how little you see, the parale passage of Isaiah 22:22 is ***Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: ***

Which proves the point that it is not Peter but Jesus. Peter is a little stone just like you and I and Paul and the rest of the saints; there are no super saints, there are saints and aints and God knows who are His and who are not.

Beth: That is a cop out and you know it. Jesus is the Davidic King of the NT. Peter is His Chief Steward. The parallel is so obvious that if it were a 2X4 it would smack you in the face. Your claim that Jesus, “…works via the Holy Spirit through each believer just as He has said.” does not hold water. Recall that Jesus prayed that His followers be one as He and the Father were one then look at christianity today with all the divisions and fracturing that has gone on and is still going on. How can you truthfully say that Jesus “…works via the Holy Spirit through each believer just as He has said.” If that were the case then Jesus is doing a very poor job judging by the results.

As for revelation 3:7 did the Davidic Kings abandoned their authority to the ir chief stewards? NO, They remained in power, they remained in authority. Jesus is still on the throne, Beth. He is still the king and Peter is His chief steward. The Catholic Church does not say otherwise. You say, "…it is not Peter but Jesus’. You want to divorce the chief steward from the king. In doing so you ignore scripture that says that will not happen. The chief steward acts on behalf of the king and in accord with the king’s wishes. Peter cannot do other thn what Jesus wishes. How can he when the authority to bind and loose is tempered by the Holy Spirit guiding Him into all truth. Some protestants have pointed out that the gramatical construction of Mt 16:19 is in the past tense as saying that Peter shall bind on earth what has been bound in heaven. If that is the case how in the world can Peter go wrong? How can Peter bind anything that has not already been bound by Jesus in heaven??? By the way the term “super saints” is a show on EWTN by Jack and Penney Lord. Have you been watching Catholic television???

 

[mpjw2]

Tell me Beth,
If salvation is by Faith alone, then sin doesn’t matter . Why would we need to repent?

However, if sin does matter in terms of salvation, then the need to repent is obvious.

Paul…please understand…how else can i say this?

salvation is now not tomorrow, next week, next year, next hour minute or sec…but right now

right now after saying confession …God forgives me and **right now **should I die God will save me and accept me to heaven

And it is because of our faith we have in Jesus Christ **right now **which saves me should i die right now at the exact moment after just making a confession.

thank you

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

There is no freedom in protestantism.

oh yes there is…sorry you believe not

Or take the case of sheep since that is used in scripture as a description of the followers of Christ.

Are sheep **more free **in the herd under the care of the shepherd
or

are they more free outside the herd among the wolves?

my answer bold…underlined

In John 21:15-17 Jesus told Peter that he was to feed Jesus’ flock and Peter was to tend to Jesus’ flock.

yes and ? ?

finish your thought about this verse and being free…

Recall that Jesus prayed that His followers be one as He and the Father were one then look at christianity today with all the divisions and fracturing that has gone on and is still going on. How can you truthfully say that Jesus “…works via the Holy Spirit through each believer just as He has said.” If that were the case then Jesus is doing a very poor job judging by the results.

I believe Jesus has done something beyond human understanding.

Because He loved you He died so you dont have to be punished…you believe that?

The chief steward acts on behalf of the king and in accord with the king’s wishes. Peter cannot do other thn what Jesus wishes.

Inkaneer consider this…

The inkaneer acts on behalf of the king and in accord with the king’s wishes. Inkaneer cannot do other thn what Jesus wishes.

Inkaneer you are also Jesus’ chief steward. make the words of the bible personal. Jesus may be talking to Peter, He is also talking to you. This is the mystery of His Word.

Inkaneer we in the world have all been conditioned in one way or the other…all believing they have truth or are seeking for truth.

Imagine for a moment…falling in a deep sleep and waking up and ALL is gone…just you alone living on this earth just like Adam.

It is you and God no churches no people…

think of how you will survive till the day you die…

one day you meet another person and find out they are a native of a foreign land having never been to church and does not even believe in God…oh one more thing He is close to death

What are you going to do?

thank you

mpjw

 

[paul_c]

MPJW:

Being saved right now is not all that important in the grand scheme of things… What is important is whether you will ultimately spend eternity in heaven or hell. And we both agree that you can’t predict the future. Instead of walking around pronouncing that you are saved, wouldn’t it be more productive to expend your efforts on loving God and your neighbors. Loving makes you holy and being holy will lead you to heaven.

I also think you have a huge misunderstanding of the role of the church. Its role is to serve. It serves by teaching and administering the sacraments, thus helping people get to heaven. This is its only purpose. You can choose to use that service, set up by Jesus himself, or you can go it alone.

As for the freedom analogy. Are you more free when you have to run and hide from the wolves to stay alive or when you are safely in the fold, where you are free from fear and can do the things God wants you to do.

 

[mpjw2]

MPJW:

Being saved right now is not all that important in the grand scheme of things… What is important is whether you will ultimately spend eternity in heaven or hell. And we both agree that you can’t predict the future.

but we will know what will happen right now, based on the decision we make right now…

the future is not guaranteed…hiw many ways can I say this.

If you die 5 minutes from now, you will not have the chance to do the will of God.

Please do not misunderstand what I am saying for the --th time.

I am not downplaying do the will of God, I embrace doing His will

but answer these questions…

if you take your last breath now, are you in a state of grace?

if you are not in a state of grace now what would happen to you if you should die before making your next confession with a priest?

Can you acheive a state of grace without a priest present?

I hope you better understand my concern

I am sorry I have not made myself clear

Instead of walking around pronouncing that you are saved, wouldn’t it be more productive to expend your efforts on loving God and your neighbors. Loving makes you holy and being holy will lead you to heaven.

holy may lead me there but will not get me in…being in a state of grace gets me in, right

I also think you have a huge misunderstanding of the role of the church. Its role is to serve. It serves by teaching and administering the sacraments, thus helping people get to heaven. This is its only purpose. You can choose to use that service, set up by Jesus himself, or you can go it alone.

I agree 100% I am sorry again if you believe I do not know the role of the church

As for the freedom analogy.

Are you more free when you have to run and hide from the wolves to stay alive

or

when you are safely in the fold, where you are free from fear and can do the things God wants you to do.

Being a christian means to me I trust God. that trust enables me to encounter the “wolves”, the non believers of the world, and bring the gospel news to them in any way which God leads me.

Do I get verbally attacked, criticized, hear the words #$% Jesus Christ, absolutely.

to answer your question

I feel free to be with the wolves and I would not think to run and hide.

It is in the midst of the wolves where one’s true colors shine.

If you have not seen it…watch “the cross and the switchblade” on you tube

a true story… and I saw Nick Cruz in person whome the story is about

after seeing the movie

you will know exactly what I am talking about

here is the first of 11 parts

youtube.com/watch?v=QQ_HvWJ2_DI

God bless

mpjw

 

[paul_c]

mpjw,

Being consistently in the state of grace makes you holy.

And stop making it about you. Frankly, I doesn’t matter whether you think you are in the state of grace. Learn to do God’s will and stop worrying about your reward.