(SPLIT) Is baptism a "work"?

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Della:
St. Paul doesn’t use the word baptism, but he alludes to it.
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Where? If you read a little further, Eph 2:8-9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (RSV). Is baptism considered a work? If so, it seems clear that salvation does not depend on it (as the next verse says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. " (Eph 2:10 RSV), which would include Baptism). Seems clear to me that good works (including Baptism) are what we do as Christians because we’ve been saved.
 
Cachonga said:
Where? If you read a little further, Eph 2:8-9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (RSV). Is baptism considered a work? If so, it seems clear that salvation does not depend on it (as the next verse says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. " (Eph 2:10 RSV), which would include Baptism). Seems clear to me that good works (including Baptism) are what we do as Christians because we’ve been saved.
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I have never heard of the Sacraments referred to as a work-- it is certainly not described thus in the Catechism. Receiving the Sacraments are a cooperation with God’s grace. All Sacraments are about grace. As the Catechism says they are “an outward sign of an inward grace” and they are “efficacious”. CCC 1123 says “the purpose of the sacraments is to sanctify men, to build up the Body of Christ and, finally, to give worship to God. Because they are signs they also instruct. They not only presuppose faith, but by words and objects they also nourish, strengthen, and express it. That is why they are called 'sacraments of faith.”

As Catholics, we believe that God actually cleanses our soul of all sin and adopts us as His children through Christ Jesus. For this purification, we need the Holy Spirit. We believe that at our Baptism, the Holy Spirit imparts God’s grace to cleanse our soul. Who merited this grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit? Only Jesus Christ. Man cannot work to merit what only Jesus Christ merited. Our role is to cooperate with His grace. First and foremost, by having faith. Even then, our faith is initiated by God. No one can come to believe in Jesus Christ without first having been drawn by the Father (John 6:64) and no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3). So, even our faith begins with God. When it comes to works, which we should talk about on another thread, faith without works is dead (Jas 2:17). Works are the “flip side of the coin” to faith. If you have true faith, then you have works of love, if you have works of love, then you have true faith-- you don’t have one without the other.

Other Scriptures that may be helpful are Titus 3:5 “he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit” and John 3:5 ““Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit”.
 
I have had Catholics (including some family members) suggest Baptism is a “good work” (or at least “something we must do to become Christian”, which sounds very much like some type of work), which is why I made mention of it as I did. I agree that Baptism is a sacrament given by Jesus, but I do not believe it is necessary for salvation. Cornelius and his family were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before Peter even finished preaching to them, and then they were baptized (see Acts 10). When the Philippian jailor asked what he needed to do to be saved, Paul answered, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31 RSV). Paul and Silas then preached the Word to the jailor and his family, then they were baptized. I wonder, if Baptism is necessary for salvation, why was Paul sent to preach the Gospel, but not to baptize (see 1 Cor 1:17)? I have no doubt that he saw to it that believers were baptized (and he clearly did do some baptisms, as he himself testifies), but the point is that baptism (as I see it revealed in Scripture) is for believers (those who have already accepted Christ and been regenerated and “born again”)

Having said all that, I am still curious how Paul alluded to baptism in Eph 2:1-6 (which was my original question).
 
We’ll just have to agree to disagree, my friend. Baptism now saves you (1 Pt 3:21)-- it’s importance cannot be overstated. Respectfully, I think it is scripturally insupportable to say that it is only for believers, that is to say, only for those who are of the age of reason. It is not just for those old enough to believe, because it is the imitation into the family of God----why would God deny this to children? As the Ephesians passage in question says: we are born by nature children of wrath. This is why “whole households” were baptized. (Acts 16:33 and 1 Cor 1:16) Thus, we believe that children should be initiated into the family of God on the faith of their parents. (That being said, we do not believe that a person who is baptized as a child just gets a “free pass” into heaven if they reach the age of reason and decide not to believe. Of course, they have to become a believer.)

In Colossians, we see the connection of baptism to circumcision, which also occurred in infancy based on the faith of the parents in the Covenant of Abraham. "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead (Co 2:11-12). Also Rm 6:4 talks about being buried to death in baptism and then raised up.

So back to Ephesians. "5] even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [6]* and raised us up with him*, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, "

I’m sure by now you can see why we see the allusion to baptism in this passage. It is the reference to being “raised up”. Catholics believe we are raised up at our baptism and I feel that the Scripture supports this belief. We believe that it is through faith AND through Baptism that we initially enter into the Body of Christ.

PS… we also believe that a Baptism of Desire is possible for those who are unable to be baptized in the normal way. The thief on the cross comes to mind.
 
There are other baptism besides water.baptism of blood, baptism of the desire, etc.
 
Basically, Baptism is a pledge to “keep the faith”. It is an entry by faith into the Body of Christ. It is a work, but a work of faith planned by God long before us to make actual our adoption as sons.

And as Paul says, God works in us both to will and to do. The assent of the will is the important thing here.

peace
steve
 
St Paul wrote his Epistles to the Church. The Church is made up of the baptized. St Paul has written these Epistles with the expectation that his readers have already been baptized.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you [baptized Christians of the Church of Ephesus] are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. Not of works, that no man may glory.”

Romans 10:9-10 “For if thou [baptized Christians of the Church in Rome] confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice: but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.”

St Paul wrote Romans to the Church in Rome and Ephesians to the Church in Ephesus. The Church was (and still is) made up of baptized Christians. He wrote those letters to help the baptized Christians know what is needed of them to be counted among the redeemed.

St Paul was not contradicting Christ in Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned.”

He was not contradicting St Peter in Acts 2:38 “But Peter said to them [the non-Christians who were outside of the Church]: Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:41 “They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls.”

He was not contradicting himself when recounting his own testimony of salvation. St Paul said that St Ananias told him: Acts 22:16 “And now why tarriest thou? Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.”

Here is more from St Paul:
Romans 6:3-4 “Know you not [Church in Rome] that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death: that, as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ.”

1 Corinthians 12:13 “For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.”
 
Cachonga said:
Eph 2:8-9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (RSV). Is baptism considered a work? If so, it seems clear that salvation does not depend on it (as the next verse says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. " (Eph 2:10 RSV), which would include Baptism). Seems clear to me that good works (including Baptism) are what we do as Christians because we’ve been saved.
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I have no idea what you mean by the term “work”, and so it is impossible to comment on intelligently. The use of the term “works” by Paul above is a reference to the works of the Jewish law. If you are truly questioning whether Baptism is a work in that context, the answer is no.
Baptism is an act of faith - a very special one - known as a Sacrament. A Sacrament is a visible sign, instituted by Christ, which communicates (ie conveys, transmits, effects) grace.
Your entire argument above appears to be predicated on an erroneous notion of salvation. You seem to assume that salvation is instantaneous, permanent and complete during this life - it isn’t. Paul is making a simply point: they were saved by grace through faith. That reality does not obviate the fact that they were also saved through Baptism.
 
Cachonga said:
I have had Catholics (including some family members) suggest Baptism is a “good work” (or at least “something we must do to become Christian”, which sounds very much like some type of work), which is why I made mention of it as I did. I agree that Baptism is a sacrament given by Jesus, but I do not believe it is necessary for salvation. Cornelius and his family were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues before Peter even finished preaching to them, and then they were baptized (see Acts 10). When the Philippian jailor asked what he needed to do to be saved, Paul answered, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:31 RSV). Paul and Silas then preached the Word to the jailor and his family, then they were baptized. I wonder, if Baptism is necessary for salvation, why was Paul sent to preach the Gospel, but not to baptize (see 1 Cor 1:17)? I have no doubt that he saw to it that believers were baptized (and he clearly did do some baptisms, as he himself testifies), but the point is that baptism (as I see it revealed in Scripture) is for believers (those who have already accepted Christ and been regenerated and “born again”)

Having said all that, I am still curious how Paul alluded to baptism in Eph 2:1-6 (which was my original question).
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Wouldn’t choosing to be baptized be a submission to prevenient grace? Catholic theology does not teach that good works can happen apart from grace, because the latter is the operative of the prior which is cooperative. In that sense, baptism would be necessary for salvation because otherwise would be rejecting the prevenient grace, and thus lapsing from repentance. Of course, that would mean prevenient grace is inherently prior to sanctifying grace or the grace of justification, but I think we can agree on that.

Another vantage point would be this: Being baptized and choosing to receive more graces, namely sanctifying grace, etc. would be the efficacy of prevenient grace.
 
Cachonga said:
Where? If you read a little further, Eph 2:8-9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (RSV). Is baptism considered a work? If so, it seems clear that salvation does not depend on it (as the next verse says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. " (Eph 2:10 RSV), which would include Baptism). Seems clear to me that good works (including Baptism) are what we do as Christians because we’ve been saved.
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Where I came from all you had to do to be saved was say the sinners prayer. Isn’t that also a work? Does God want us to be that passive that we can only be saved while we are asleep?
 
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