SPLIT: Lutheran and Catholic baptism are the same?

[Mikeoffaith]

Which Lutheran Church are you referring to?
ELCA is no longer Christian. they ordain gays and women.

bluelake

Now, now bluelake, I wouldn’t be hurling stones while worshipping in a glass church.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I would dispute the idea that Lutherans in the ELCA are not Christian, or even that the ELCA is not Christian. There is a strong difference between heterodox, which the ELCA has become in some of these issues, and apostate.

Jon

Thank you Jon!

 

[jmcrae]

Put 10 priests in a room and ask them what the above entails and you will get 10 different answers. Baptism should be a non-factor. One is not baptized Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. they are baptized “into the faith” and that baptism is valid pretty much across the board.

A child not baptized in the Catholic faith would not be permitted to attend classes for First Reconciliation or First Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, until after making a public Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church, and the record of it attached to his Baptismal record - and one hundred percent of the priests I know agree with that. If the child were aged 10 or older he would be required to go through the RCIC for baptized non-Catholic children, before being permitted to receive the Sacraments in the Catholic Church.

So, although the baptism is considered valid in the sense that it wouldn’t be repeated, it is certainly not the equivalent of a Catholic baptism - a child baptized in a non-Catholic church does not have the same rights in the Catholic Church as a child baptized in the Catholic Church.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

A child not baptized in the Catholic faith would not be permitted to attend classes for First Reconciliation or First Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, until after making a public Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church, and the record of it attached to his Baptismal record - and one hundred percent of the priests I know agree with that. If the child were aged 10 or older he would be required to go through the RCIC for baptized non-Catholic children, before being permitted to receive the Sacraments in the Catholic Church.

So, although the baptism is considered valid in the sense that it wouldn’t be repeated, it is certainly not the equivalent of a Catholic baptism - a child baptized in a non-Catholic church does not have the same rights in the Catholic Church as a child baptized in the Catholic Church.

Interesting. I never would have known. I wonder how Christ would feel about someone not having “equal rights” in His Church. It all sounds very exclusionary coming from a church that claims to be the one true church founded by the Apostles who received the word directly from a Christ who was completely inclusive especially to those on the outside of society. Do you think He looks at us sometimes and says, “Wow, these Jews heard nothing I said.”?

 

[Lutheranteach]

A child not baptized in the Catholic faith would not be permitted to attend classes for First Reconciliation or First Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, until after making a public Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church, and the record of it attached to his Baptismal record - and one hundred percent of the priests I know agree with that. If the child were aged 10 or older he would be required to go through the RCIC for baptized non-Catholic children, before being permitted to receive the Sacraments in the Catholic Church.

So, although the baptism is considered valid in the sense that it wouldn’t be repeated, it is certainly not the equivalent of a Catholic baptism - a child baptized in a non-Catholic church does not have the same rights in the Catholic Church as a child baptized in the Catholic Church.

I can tell you from first hand experience that this is not true.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I can tell you from first hand experience that this is not true.

Hi Lutheranteach-

This reminds me of an interview with John McCain about Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. A reporter was asking him about DADT and he kept responding, “It’s not the policy.” And the reporter was insistent that some violation of DADT had occurred and he just kept repeating, “It’s not the policy.” I think that even though your experience may be different, Jmcrae is stating what the policy is. As we know, not everyone may follow the policy to the letter even in the Roman Church.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

For you, I will always refer to you as belonging to the Latin Rite Catholic Church. I know what you mean, I find it dismissive and rude when I as Lutheran am lumped in with the Protestants or am merely relegated to the realms of an ecclesiastical community.

 

[jmcrae]

I can tell you from first hand experience that this is not true.

Yes, it absolutely is. If you submit a Protestant certificate of baptism for your child’s First Holy Communion or First Reconciliation classes, the child MUST make a Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church.

Usually what we have them do is we take them aside on the first day of classes, and have them recite the Apostles’ Creed in the presence of the priest, and the priest then signs the form, and it is attached to the child’s Baptismal certificate, in the Office. A copy is also given to the Catholic parent.

There are sometimes reasons why the non-Catholic parent would not be told about it, and we don’t interfere with the family dynamic.

And, as mentioned, it’s possible that procedures were not followed, in your case - but when your children go for their Confirmation, they will be required to present either a Catholic baptismal certificate, or evidence of having made a Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church, to the Bishop - and Bishops are not normally quite so lenient.

Keep in mind that this is not done out of some kind of spite - it is done out of respect for the Protestant community of which the child is actually supposed to be a member. We recognize that the child is, in fact, transferring his allegiance from one faith community to another - instead of pretending that his original faith community doesn’t even exist at all, or doesn’t matter.

 

[jmcrae]

For you, I will always refer to you as belonging to the Latin Rite Catholic Church. I know what you mean, I find it dismissive and rude when I as Lutheran am lumped in with the Protestants or am merely relegated to the realms of an ecclesiastical community.

I’m confused - wasn’t Luther the author of Protestantism? Why would a Lutheran not want to be thought of as Protestant?

 

[gcnuss]

I’m confused - wasn’t Luther the author of Protestantism? Why would a Lutheran not want to be thought of as Protestant?

Jumping in where the angels fear to tread, I would say that the word Protestant describes such a wide range of non-Catholic belief as to be useless. Further, I would hardly describe Luther as the author of Protestantism as it exists today. He wasn’t even the author of Protestantism as it came to exist in his day.

If one reads the Augsburg Confession, it is notable that the Lutherans made an attempt to show their intent to remain faithful to the long tradition of the Church even as they sought to correct what they perceived as abuses. Other groups – Anabaptists and Calvinists, for example, went much further to separate themselves. The denial of the Real Presence, the rejection of infant baptism, etc., were opposed by the Lutherans. Why would Lutherans want to be associated with those who took those paths?

 

[1ke]

I wonder how Christ would feel about someone not having “equal rights” in His Church.

The Sacraments are not rights. They are gifts. And to receive them requires one be properly disposed, as even St. Paul states in 1 Corinthians.

It all sounds very exclusionary coming from a church that claims to be the one true church

Not at all. Everyone is welcome to make a profession of faith, join the Church, and receive the Sacraments.

founded by the Apostles who received the word directly from a Christ who was completely inclusive especially to those on the outside of society

Matthew 22. Not so inclusive.

This warm, fuzzy Jesus is a fabrication.

Do you think He looks at us sometimes and says, “Wow, these Jews heard nothing I said.”?

Yes, I believe he says that about all who refuse to enter his Church in full communion.

 

[bluelake]

In response to the question in the “split” title, “Lutheran and Catholic baptism the same?”:

Lutheran and Catholic baptism both incorporate a person into the Church, the Body of Christ. The Lutheran baptism, being Trinitarian, is accepted by the Catholic Church as valid.

HOWEVER, Lutheran baptism does not **fully **incorporate a person into the Catholic Church. A person baptized Lutheran does **NOT **have access to the Catholic sacraments. This person also is not bound by Catholic Canon Law. This person is in imperfect communion with the Chucrh.

In order to become a Catholic, a person baptized in the Lutheran Church (or Presbyterian as the original post from which this one split was referring to) would require:

(a) if below the age of reason, it requires the parents to explicitly state their intention to bring the child into the Catholic Church through a Rite in the Church and then follow up by raising them in the Church and completing their sacraments.

(b) if above the age of reason, it requires that the baptized individual make a statement of faith themselves and be received into the Church and receive the remaining sacraments of initiation.

Which lutheran Church are you referring to?

 

[bluelake]

Actually, bluelake, the symbol/logo that Lutheranteach uses is the Luther Rose. It is a symbol for Lutheranism in general and was developed for Martin Luther in 1530 and represent a summary of Luther’s basic theology. The LCMS Symbol is a triple cross one on top of the other. I have a feeling the LCMS also ordain gays too, they (the LCMS) just don’t know about it.

mike,
Wnhat make you think LCMS ordains homosexuals? openly?
If they did I would cancel my membership in a heartbeat.
have you read Rom.1:24-32, 1Cor.6;9-11
Living as a Christian is very difficult. We all sin everyday.
lets pray for each other. We all have a heavy cross to carry.

God bless,
blue

 

[1ke]

Which lutheran Church are you referring to?

I am referring to all Lutheran ecclesial communities.

There aren’t any Lutherans that reject the Trinity, to my knowledge, nor any statement from the Catholic Church to indicate invalid baptisms coming out of the various Lutheran denominations.

If any have recently arisen, please share that documentation.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

mike,
Wnhat make you think LCMS ordains homosexuals? openly?
If they did I would cancel my membership in a heartbeat.
have you read Rom.1:24-32, 1Cor.6;9-11
Living as a Christian is very difficult. We all sin everyday.
lets pray for each other. We all have a heavy cross to carry.

God bless,
blue

I don’t think that they openly ordain members of the gay community. However, I would be willing to bet we could probably dig up someone in the clergy who is gay. Maybe not out and probably celibate, but I’m going to guess that we would be able to find one in all the clergy of the LCMS, I would go even farther and say that there is probably at least one in WELS as well.

 

[JonNC]

Which lutheran Church are you referring to?

I’m not sure, bluelake, that which synod is relevent. Baptism, in the trinitarian form, is not invalidated by denomination nor synod, nor by their paticular or piculiar practices (even though they be heterodox) outside the sacrament.

Jon

 

[bluelake]

Lutherans will say that, yes, we have ordination, though we don’t term it a sacrament. The difference would be that while the confessions are clear regarding the importance and desirablility of Apostolic Succession, we don’t view it as vital. And we would cite times in the past when Catholics, too, practiced presbyter ordination.



And Lutherans should agree with this. LCMS former President A.L. Barry once said that the Lord’s Supper is the center of Lutheran worship.

I would disagree with the second part to the extent that we are marked by the cross of Christ in Baptism, so it has a significant effect. That, of course, is not to say that catechesis is not important.

Or just in the name of Jesus Christ, or rebaptism.

Jon

A Christian baptism is the same in all Christian churches.
“In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”
God doesn’t change from church to church.
I sometime think The Lord is up there laughing at our agendas and the topics that we are always debating… No wonder the Lord has chosen to look on the heart of man and not doctrines. lol

God bless,
bluealke