Spreading Ashes At Sea

  • Thread starter Thread starter El_PAso
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

El_PAso

Guest
Hi,

I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t take loved ones ashes and spread them at sea but that exactly what one family member is doing with another and I have no say in the matter.

I offered to pay for and researched a Catholic burial but appear to be rejected. At the time there was a discussion of sending some of the ashes to be incorporated into figures of the deceased favorite R&R band… I hoped that was not followed through with but the person in charged said they needed more time to decide what to do and I did not press the matter.

I got a text stating they have chartered a boat to “celebrate his life” and I’m invited. I asked “why a boat” and have not heard back…

I assume it’s to spread ashes as that was discussed previously. Person in question passed 2 years ago…

Is this something I should be involved with? The figurines really disturb me…

I don’t want to shun the family is its an innocent celebration but if it becomes a new age free for all with memento figurines with deceased ashes as parting gifts I’d just as soon and should pass…

PS. I’ve been traveling and could not find a Priest to speak with.

Thank you!

EP
 
Definitely do not participate in the spreading of the ashes, nor if I’ve understood correctly joining ashes with memento figurines etc.

Instruction Ad resurgendum cum Christo regarding the burial of the deceased and the conservation of the ashes in the case of cremation, 25.10.2016
ETA
“5. When, for legitimate motives, cremation of the body has been chosen, the ashes of the faithful must be laid to rest in a sacred place, that is, in a cemetery or, in certain cases, in a church or an area, which has been set aside for this purpose, and so dedicated by the competent ecclesial authority.”
“6. For the reasons given above, the conservation of the ashes of the departed in a domestic residence is not permitted. Only in grave and exceptional cases dependent on cultural conditions of a localized nature, may the Ordinary, in agreement with the Episcopal Conference or the Synod of Bishops of the Oriental Churches, concede permission for the conservation of the ashes of the departed in a domestic residence. Nonetheless, the ashes may not be divided among various family members and due respect must be maintained regarding the circumstances of such a conservation.”
“7. In order that every appearance of pantheism, naturalism or nihilism be avoided, it is not permitted to scatter the ashes of the faithful departed in the air, on land, at sea or in some other way, nor may they be preserved in mementos, pieces of jewellery or other objects. These courses of action cannot be legitimised by an appeal to the sanitary, social, or economic motives that may have occasioned the choice of cremation.”
 
Last edited:
CRV said:
“6. For the reasons given above, the conservation of the ashes of the departed in a domestic residence is not permitted. Only in grave and exceptional cases dependent on cultural conditions of a localized nature, may the Ordinary, in agreement with the Episcopal Conference or the Synod of Bishops of the Oriental Churches, concede permission for the conservation of the ashes of the departed in a domestic residence. Nonetheless, the ashes may not be divided among various family members and due respect must be maintained regarding the circumstances of such a conservation.”
“7. In order that every appearance of pantheism, naturalism or nihilism be avoided, it is not permitted to scatter the ashes of the faithful departed in the air, on land, at sea or in some other way, nor may they be preserved in mementos, pieces of jewellery or other objects. These courses of action cannot be legitimised by an appeal to the sanitary, social, or economic motives that may have occasioned the choice of cremation.”
Click to expand...
Just throwing it out there (no pun intended), what if someone who had been cremated were later canonized? Could their ashes then be used as first class relics?

I can’t see why not.
 
You have tried the best you can to dissuade the family members.
If they are unwilling to obey the Church’s instructions, you are in no way responsible.
I hope you are able to find a helpful way to deal with your personal decision.
 
HomeschoolDad
Catholic Encyclopedia - Relics
" According to the more common opinion of theologians, relics are to be honoured; St. Thomas, in Summa III:25:6, does not seem to consider even the word adorare inappropriate— cultu duliae relativae , that is to say with a veneration which is not that of latria (divine worship) and which though directed primarily to the material objects of the cult—i.e., the bones, ashes, garments, etc.—does not rest in them, but looks beyond to the saints they commemorate as to its formal term."

" We learn from St. Cyril of Jerusalem (before 350) that the wood of the Cross, discovered c. 318, was already distributed throughout the world; and St. Gregory of Nyssa in his sermons on the forty martyrs, after describing how their bodies were burned by command of the persecutors, explains that “their ashes and all that the fire had spared have been so distributed throughout the world that almost every province has had its share of the blessing.”

So perhaps it was once done.

Diocesan News Ask the Register: relics and cremains? Friday, 03 February 2017

ETA
SANCTORUM MATER - INSTRUCTION FOR CONDUCTING DIOCESAN OR EPARCHIAL INQUIRIES IN THE CAUSES OF SAINTS - ROME 2007

CONGREGATION FOR THE CAUSES OF SAINTS INSTRUCTION “RELICS IN THE CHURCH: AUTHENTICITY AND PRESERVATION” Rome 2017

Congregation for Causes of Saints issues new Instruction on Relics “The present Instruction replaces the Appendix to the Instruction, Sanctorum Mater.”
 
Last edited:
CRV said:
after describing how their bodies were burned by command of the persecutors
Click to expand...
I would guess that as their ashes was all that was left, there was no other choice as to have a piece of hair, or body part or bone for veneration, as that was all that could be gathered up - ashes.
 
I have been taught the the cremated ashes should be buried in their entirety - not divided among family members or spread at sea or over land. The ashes should all be kept together and not put on a mantel in your home
or on a shelf in a closet.
 
Last edited:
El_PAso said:
I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t take loved ones ashes and spread them at sea
Click to expand...
You are wrong about this.

The modern way of civilian burial of ashes at sea after cremation is used where cemetery and burial fees can not be afforded or by simple preference of the deceased and/or the deceased’s family.

I think the specifics are to a degree dependent on authorization by the local bishop, and there have been recent changes to the rules governing. The is also a strong cultural factor at play that depends on the country.

Normally, nowadays, the ashes aren’t “scattered” but have a special kind of thin dissoluble urn that buries itself upon impact with the ocean floor and thus the ashes are interred as an entirety. There are regions in the sea especially designated for this kind of burial that ensure no deep-sea fishing or drag-nets are used in that location so the ashes are bound to rest undisturbed where they lay perhaps much longer than they would at a regular cemetery.

Since you were invited to the funeral if indeed you care for the deceased person and/or the deceased person’s family you don’t need to be scrupulous about attending the ceremony. There will be, however, a factor of difference and novelty, of change -since you never attended this specific kind of burial- and it will be different in many ways from “traditional funerals” in that, among other things, you’ll be on a boat and the person has been deceased for a considerable amount of time.

P.S. @El_PAso I think you are right about opposing some of the specifics you described, although I also think there are ways of licitly and respectfully having a burial at sea. (And perhaps you should simply point the family in the right direction - keep the ashes together and inter them at sea as a whole. They could come to regret other options latter - and perhaps you voice of reason should be not to oppose the burial at sea but to offer sound advice regarding the conduction of the burial.)

It has become commonplace in some countries since cemetery and burial costs skyrocketed in recent decades. If, indeed, the familie’s wish is burial at sea there are some well thought options to consider that are more respectful of the deceased’s memory. And this can, cause some strangeness to who’s used to thinking about funerals only in the traditional manner.
CRV said:
  1. (…) it is not permitted to scatter the ashes
Click to expand...
@CRV that point nº7 seems really straightforward (only that the form of burial I described doesn’t technically constitute “scattering” ).

[Going prices are somewhere between 40.000$ (some part in Europe) to 500.000$ (E.g. Hong Kong) to buy a burial lot. And, if you decide not to buy, that country’s government may permit something like 10 year interment after which the remains are exhumed (and then what?)]
 
Last edited:
Many Catholic Churches in my country have a memorial garden for burial of ashes, and a wall upon which to place memorial plaques. This is not an expensive option and is consistent with the respect owed to a person’s remains. I would seem likely or possible that such facilities are available on Church property in other countries.
[c](Catholic cremation: Vatican issues new guidelines, says no to scattering ashes - CNN)

According to new guidelines from the Vatican’s doctrinal office, cremated remains should be kept in a “sacred place” such as a church cemetery. Ashes should not be divided up between family members, "nor may they be preserved in mementos, pieces of jewelry or other objects."
 
The Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) issued the document, which claims that many cremation practices today increasingly reflect New Age, non-Christian ideas about “fusion with Mother Nature.”

The Catholic Church forbade cremation for centuries, but in 1963 the ban was lifted when the Vatican acknowledged that there were often pressing social and sanitary needs for cremation. However, the Church still urged its members to choose burial wherever possible.

The new document states: “[The Church] cannot … condone attitudes or permit rites that involve erroneous ideas about death, such as considering death as the definitive annihilation of the person, or the moment of fusion with Mother Nature or the universe, or as a stage in the cycle of regeneration, or as the definitive liberation from the ‘prison’ of the body.”

It goes on: “In order that every appearance of pantheism, naturalism or nihilism be avoided, it is not permitted to scatter the ashes of the faithful departed in the air, on land, at sea or in some other way, nor may they be preserved in mementos, pieces of jewellery or other objects.”

It also adds that if someone asks for their ashes to be scattered “for reasons contrary to the Christian faith" then "a Christian funeral must be denied to that person.”

According to Cardinal Gerhard Mueller, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and author of the text, there has been an “unstoppable increase” in cremation and that it would soon be the “norm” in many places.

However, he says: “The dead are not the private property of the family.
 
Last edited:
Thanks!

Yes the deceased was Catholic but stalled out at Confirmation refusing to be confirmed.

He was a troubled individual. Impossible to know what was in his heart but almost certainly did not attend Mass or adhere to Catholic teaching. Family member in charge claims “catholic” but not living a Catholic life in any way shape or form when last we spoke.

I do understand that under certain circumstances ashes at sea could be licit but there has been no indication this will happen. I would say with utmost confidence they have not consulted a priest for advice on this matter.

Only contact has been Facebook posts and always of a new age flavor.

When last we were in constant communication I was sure we were going to inter the ashes at a Catholic cemetery then they claimed they needed more time and communication has been sparse since… I tried to evangelize but despite Catholic such a lack of understanding it was difficult to guide in any fashion.

BTW IF by miracle I could convince to have Catholic burial how long does that process take? I suppose Baptismal, Communion records required…If I could quickly steer and arrange perhaps possible but fear they have too many new age types have her ear…

Thanks for your help!

EP
 
Agreed!

My question is my involvement.

Frankly I was/am a little bit apprehensive for just the logistics of it. I only know one person who will be there and getting on a boat with a bunch of strangers and being literally trapped while who knows what is planned makes me uncomfortable at best.

I don’t like to use my Catholic faith as an excuse as on one hand I do have a responsibility to support family…

On another hand my actions should convey my faith…

Thanks again,

EP
 
adgloriam said:
the form of burial I described doesn’t technically constitute “scattering”
Click to expand...
technically correct. Would be an exceptional circumstance though, and I would think that permission to do so would be the same as:-
CRV said:
Only in grave and exceptional cases dependent on cultural conditions of a localized nature, may the Ordinary, in agreement with the Episcopal Conference or the Synod of Bishops of the Oriental Churches, concede permission
Click to expand...
so by this, I think an individuals local Ordinary (Bishop) would need to be approached in these cases. The average lay Catholic does not have the authority to make these decisions themselves, but are to follow the Church’s teaching and be obedient. If there is an issue as you mention e.g. cost of a burial plot - hence why the Church changed its positon and permits cremation provided this is not chosen to oppose Catholic beliefs/oppose Catholic Church teaching.
adgloriam said:
that country’s government may permit something like 10 year interment after which the remains are exhumed (and then what?)]
Click to expand...
whilst I do not have any knowledge on this circumstance in particular, I would think the Bishops Conference of that country would be well aware of these issues and have issued statements covering these circumstances.

ETA that if my knowledge is lacking in what is the official ruling in all countries, I apoligize, and humbly stand corrected. I am speaking of what is the overall instructions of the Church, but as we see in the paragraph I’v quoted above, the Conference of Bishops could concede permission for urn burial at sea etc as you and (name removed by moderator) mentioned.
 
Last edited:
CRV said:
40.png
adgloriam:
that country’s government may permit something like 10 year interment after which the remains are exhumed (and then what?)]
Click to expand...
whilst I do not have any knowledge on this circumstance in particular, I would think the Bishops Conference of that country would be well aware of these issues and have issued statements covering these circumstances.
Click to expand...
This issue is to difficult for me to comment on so I’ll excuse myself from doing so. (It is as I say, and it involves politics, government and the whole of society).

It’s much more complicated than one would think (I remember being shocked the first time I drove into Barcelona and saw one of the city’s cemeteries. Something like that can’t really be described, it has to be seen…The same goes for the catacombs in Paris, etc…)

The thing is burial lots in modern times have a “property deed” and are increasingly worth lots of money. Most places in Europe are starting to have some real social conflicts surrounding all these issues (nowadays certain banks are buying up funeral agencies in a franchise business model - in some municipalities the traditional family run funeral agency is giving place to bank owned franchise monopolies). The lack of space in some municipalities has become so serious you literally have agents investigating the burial lots and seeking out the descendants offering them money - and frequently through fraud, trying to trick the descendants into “signing away” those deeds FOR FREE (under several legal guises)!! I know more than one case where such fraudulent investigators made millions in collusion with dishonest municipal administrators…

It’s ugly, as any business involving money tends to get ugly…
CRV said:
so by this, I think an individuals local Ordinary (Bishop) would need to be approached in these cases.
Click to expand...
I don’t want to get into specifics (out of concern for my privacy) but it’s my understanding that in a few countries this is generally approved already (from what I understand the ashes have a standardized religious service at moment of burial - yes, with a pastor/priest/deacon/layman designated to be on the boat as an habitual routine service - from the cases I know of the families normally aren’t on the boat).
CRV said:
I apoligize, and humbly stand corrected.
Click to expand...
No need to apologize dear brother/sister in Christ!! And you said that like a good catholic!! That’s why I also took the trouble to explain and give an overview on some of the complex questions that in modern times surround these issues. It is quite evident that some of the trends we described show a tendency of becoming more common in the near future.

God bless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top