Sspx views on eastern catholic rites

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I think a lot of people unintentionally use “rite” because its easier to say “rite” than “sui juris Church” or “particular Church”.
And sui iuris church is not a synonym of particular church.

Per the CIC:
Can. 368 Particular churches, in which and from which the one and only Catholic Church exists, are first of all dioceses, to which, unless it is otherwise evident, are likened a territorial prelature and territorial abbacy, an apostolic vicariate and an apostolic prefecture, and an apostolic administration erected in a stable manner.

Can. 369 A diocese is a portion of the people of God which is entrusted to a bishop for him to shepherd with the cooperation of the presbyterium, so that, adhering to its pastor and gathered by him in the Holy Spirit through the gospel and the Eucharist, it constitutes a particular church in which the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church of Christ is truly present and operative.

Can. 370 A territorial prelature or territorial abbacy is a certain portion of the people of God which is defined territorially and whose care, due to special circumstances, is entrusted to some prelate or abbot who governs it as its proper pastor just like a diocesan bishop.

Can. 371 §1. An apostolic vicariate or apostolic prefecture is a certain portion of the people of God which has not yet been established as a diocese due to special circumstances and which, to be shepherded, is entrusted to an apostolic vicar or apostolic prefect who governs it in the name of the Supreme Pontiff.

§2. An apostolic administration is a certain portion of the people of God which is not erected as a diocese by the Supreme Pontiff due to special and particularly grave reasons and whose pastoral care is entrusted to an apostolic administrator who governs it in the name of the Supreme Pontiff.
 
Question directed at SSPX members: What do you think of the documents in Vatican II that promote eastern catholicism? Is this diversity good? Do you feel the latin rite is a superior rite? Do you feel that a married priesthood in the eastern rites is an abomination? What would archbishop marcel lefebvre think?
I can’t speak for the Archbishop, but I (Third Order SSPX) believe that each rite of the Catholic Church enjoys a peer status with the other, with the Pope as primate over all Patriarchs. Since the other Catholic rites have been a reality for centuries within the church, I surmise that ABP Lefebvre would not have a particular problem with them. I suppose it could have easily happened that the See of Peter would have been in Carthage or Constantinople, but for the eventual spread of Christianity, the Roman See was most providential.

In general, IMHO, a married clergy detracts from the priest’s 24x7 mission to save souls. It is hard to dispute, practically, that a man with a family and financial obligations has less time and availability to devote to his parish. The priest, in the Latin rite, is married to the church and the church is his spouse.

However, the traditional privilege of marriage afforded to Eastern Rite priests is not to be abhorred, per se. It is not considered in any way sacrilegious by those in the SSPX. Healthy relations between the various Catholic rites and between the various religious orders, who have at times in history been in conflict with each other, is probably the purest and most original example of ecumenism.
 
IThe priest, in the Latin rite, is married to the church and the church is his spouse.
This idea appears no where in the theology of the priesthood nor is there any such language in the ordination rite.

Its just plan wrong. The Church is Christ’s spouse, not the priests.
 
This idea appears no where in the theology of the priesthood nor is there any such language in the ordination rite.

Its just plan wrong. The Church is Christ’s spouse, not the priests.
Br. David,

Unless you are a traditionally formed Latin priest, you would probably not be aware of this.

GTO
 
Br. David,

Unless you are a traditionally formed Latin priest, you would probably not be aware of this.

GTO
No, he’s right. “Married to the church” is just a pious saying with no theological basis.
 
As one who is involved with an SSPX parish, I know what you mean by directing your question to SSPX members. It being a priestly fraternity, lay people are only members if they are in the third order. I in no way speak for the Society, but I think it is opinions of people like me that you are seeking. So here goes.

Question directed at SSPX members:

Q: What do you think of the documents in Vatican II that promote eastern catholicism?

A: I am not familiar with those documents.

Q: Is this diversity good?

A: The diversity of rites in the Catholic Church is a healthy manifestation of the way the liturgy developed organically from the time of the Apostles. These rites need to be preserved so long as they are desired by the faithful.

Q: Do you feel the latin rite is a superior rite?

A: I am unqualified to answer that. I have no experience in the Eastern rites.

Q: Do you feel that a married priesthood in the eastern rites is an abomination?

A: No. I do not consider it an “abomination” in any rite including my own. I oppose the practice in the Latin Rite on prudential grounds. As for the East, I have no wish to impose western customs upon them.

Q: What would archbishop marcel lefebvre think?

A: I don’t know. But surely he would have recognized the folly of suppressing a lawful rite upon the faithful in the Eastern churches that they do not like. Even if the Roman Catholic Church has a bias in favor of its own liturgy and customs, She has always recognized the greater value of permitting Her children in the East to worship in the ways of their fathers.

Are you thinking that he would have wanted to expand the Tridentine Mass to the East? If he would have favored such a thing, I doubt, and I will say for myself that it would be a tragic mistake. I don’t even know if I believe Rome has the authority to suppress the Eastern rites. Could an act of the Pope make it morally necessary for every Eastern Rite bishop and priest to abandon their liturgies? I tend to think he could no more abolish a lawful rite in its entirety than he could abolish a sacrament. The legislation itself might not be lawful. It would seem like a craziness manifestly harmful to souls and therefore not binding on the conscience of an Eastern Rite Catholic.

Rory
 
No, he’s right. “Married to the church” is just a pious saying with no theological basis.
It is a concept and a belief which most certainly has a theological basis. Are you aware of Christ’s admonition to leave wife and family and follow Him?

I will admit that it is not in the ordination ceremony.
 
What the literal scripture says and how the Church interprets and apply it are not always the same. The Church is going to interpret and apply it the way that the Apostolic community and the Fathers did. The passage is directed to all men and women. It’s is Christ’s universal call to holiness.

If you say that a priest in the Roman Church is married to the Church, then you are adding something to the priesthood.

40% of our Roman Catholic priests are members of religious orders. If you told a single one of those founders that their religious are married to the Church, instead of to their religious institute, they would deny it. Now you have another large number of ordained men to whom you cannot apply this.

Now you’re left with the secular and diocesan priests who have no commitment to spouse or to religious community. You would have just created a reality for a minority of priests.

Allow me to show you how this works. Let’s say that you’re a priest and you join an order like the Francisans or the Carthusians. In both of these orders the individual’s primary call is to be a brother (Franciscan) or a hermit (Carthusian). Direct ministry to the faithful is not the primary vocation.

Carthusians are never at the service of the Church as is a diocesan priest. They simply are not involved in pastoral care at all. Most priests in a Charterhouse have never heard confessions, never baptized, never witnessed a marriage, nerver precided over a funeral, never annointed a sick person. The priestly ministry is limited to the celebration of the Eucharist for the benefit of the Universal Church.

A priest who is a Franciscan Friar will be available only as far as his superior and his brothers allow it. There are other things that take priority: LOTH with his brothers, community recreation, community meals, community meetings, community ministries and so forth. His obedience is not to a bishop, but to his religious superior. That automatically calls into question his “marriage” to the Church, if he is not under the jurisdiction of a bishop. He can be under the jurisdicgtion of a lay brother. In fact, all priests who belong to a religious community are under the jurisdiction of their superior, not the bishop. They fall under the jurisdiction of the bishop only when they work for him and only in those matters related to the apostolate that they do in communion with the bishop. Let’s say that you have a Carmelite who is a priest, but he is the novice master. He is not at the service of the Universal Church in the way that we think. He is serving the Universal Church by serving his brothers in formation. This Carmelite Friar may never see a sick person, celebrate a parish mass, or a baptism and so forth.

So, to say that a married priest is more limited than a celibate priest is not quite accurate. The truth is that a priest who is a religious is much more limited than a married priest. A married priest is a secular priest. He belongs to a diocese and is at the beck and call of the diocesan bishop. A priest who is a religious is not at the beck and call of the dioesan bishop, because religious do not belong to any diocese. We are excardinated even from the diocese of our baptism the moment that we enter novitiate. We are only at the service of the bishops if and when the superior, with the consent of the chapter and the constitutions, allows it.

All priests belong to the universal Church, be they Roman or other. But the marriage analogy does not work well, unless you want to say that he has given his life to the service of the Church. That would be true. That’s not a marriage.

The fact that you have priests who are called to live the consecrated life of a religious puts them into a situation where there is another commitment that takes presedence and that mediates their relationship with the Church. In marriage, there is no mediation between the husband and wife.

For example, a priest who is a Carmelite Friars must serve the Church as a Carmelite. He does not get up in the morning and decide that he’s going to do A, B. and C, because he’s a priest. He gets up and does A, B, and C because he is a Carmelite and if D is not appropriate for a Carmelite, even though it may be appropriate for a priest, that Carmelite does not do it. Just like a Carthusian does not take sick calls. It’s not appropriate for him to do so, even if he is a priest. If you call a Chaterhouse in the middle of the night because you need a priest, you will not get an answer. If a bishop asks a Trappist Abbot to give him a priest to celebrate mass at a parish that has no priest, he’ll get back an polite decline. If a bishop asks a Franciscan superior to give him more priests for a middle class parish, he’ll get back a polite decline.

It’s a noble phrasing to say that a priest is married to the Church. All of them are at the service of the Church, but they don’t all do the same thing. To a monk and a friar, who is a priest, praying with his brothers takes priority over celebrating mass for the faithful.

Check out how a friar-priest defines his role in the Church.

capuchins.org/spotlights.html

If you notice, his availability is determined by his vows as a brother, not by his ordination.

I know that people often use this language to refer to priests, nuns, sisters and brothers. It’s OK if they use it, as long as they understand that the term marriage does not have the same nuance as marriage between husband and wife. In the case of clergy and religious, the term marriage means one who has given his live to the service of the Church. The married priest has also given his life to the service of the Church.

Just as the married priest must pay special attention to the welfare of his family, a priest who is a religious must pay special attention to the welfare of his religious community.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
What the literal scripture says and how the Church interprets and apply it are not always the same. The Church is going to interpret and apply it the way that the Apostolic community and the Fathers did. The passage is directed to all men and women. It’s is Christ’s universal call to holiness.

It’s a noble phrasing to say that a priest is married to the Church. All of them are at the service of the Church, but they don’t all do the same thing. To a monk and a friar, who is a priest, praying with his brothers takes priority over celebrating mass for the faithful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you for the explanation, Bro. I think we may be in violent agreement. My original comment was allegorical, not scriptural, nor a part of Orders, nor did I mean to imply that a sacramental marriage of some sort exists layered over Orders. One of our other friends on this board likes to nit pik every statement made by those of us who are sympathetic to the SSPX and we were thus once again taken on another meaningless tangent.
 
Thank you for the explanation, Bro. I think we may be in violent agreement. My original comment was allegorical, not scriptural, nor a part of Orders, nor did I mean to imply that a sacramental marriage of some sort exists layered over Orders. One of our other friends on this board likes to nit pik every statement made by those of us who are sympathetic to the SSPX and we were thus once again taken on another meaningless tangent.
I was wondering how this thread ended up on the marriage metaphor. 🤷

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
In general, IMHO, a married clergy detracts from the priest’s 24x7 mission to save souls. It is hard to dispute, practically, that a man with a family and financial obligations has less time and availability to devote to his parish. The priest, in the Latin rite, is married to the church and the church is his spouse.
Br. David,

Unless you are a traditionally formed Latin priest, you would probably not be aware of this.

GTO
It is a concept and a belief which most certainly has a theological basis. Are you aware of Christ’s admonition to leave wife and family and follow Him?

I will admit that it is not in the ordination ceremony.
Thank you for the explanation, Bro. I think we may be in violent agreement. My original comment was allegorical, not scriptural, nor a part of Orders, nor did I mean to imply that a sacramental marriage of some sort exists layered over Orders. One of our other friends on this board likes to nit pik every statement made by those of us who are sympathetic to the SSPX and we were thus once again taken on another meaningless tangent.
What you said does not appear to be “allegorical” at all.

Nice ad hominem attack on the brother too.
I was wondering how this thread ended up on the marriage metaphor. 🤷
You can plainly see how it started. The statment that in the Latin Church the priest is married to the Church.
 
What you said does not appear to be “allegorical” at all.

Nice ad hominem attack on the brother too.

You can plainly see how it started. The statment that in the Latin Church the priest is married to the Church.
Great detective work justme! I’ll reiterate once more that in my humble opinion, a priest is married to the church and he therefore has little time for a wife and ten children. I speak from experience of having a large family and it is a 24x7 job without having to minister to a congregation of, say 1000, and provide Mass, sacraments and counseling.
 
Great detective work justme! I’ll reiterate once more that in my humble opinion, a priest is married to the church and he therefore has little time for a wife and ten children. I speak from experience of having a large family and it is a 24x7 job without having to minister to a congregation of, say 1000, and provide Mass, sacraments and counseling.
Right – it’s just a pious metaphor, not a theological teaching of the Church about the nature of the priesthood. Glad we got that cleared up! 🙂
 
Great detective work justme! I’ll reiterate once more that in my humble opinion, a priest is married to the church and he therefore has little time for a wife and ten children. I speak from experience of having a large family and it is a 24x7 job without having to minister to a congregation of, say 1000, and provide Mass, sacraments and counseling.
I bet you that I’m in the same boat as you and I’m celibate. Check this out

4:45 Matins
5:15 Silent Prayer
6:00 Lauds
6:30 Lectio Divina
7:30 Mass
8:15 Breakfast
8:45 Clean
9:30 Leave for ministry
12:00 Midday Prayer
12:30 Lunch
1:00 Clean
1:30 Leave for ministry
4:30 Vespers
5:00 Silent Prayer
6:00 Supper
6:45 Clean
7:15 Ministry
8:30 Community recreation
10:30 Night Prayer (Begin Grand Silence)

Mondays: laundry instead of AM ministry
Wednesday: manual labor instead of PM ministry
Saturday: manual labor instead of PM ministry
Sunday: community recreation all day

First weekend of each month: Community chapter from Fri to Sun

Holy Days and Solemnities: Mass and community all day (no ministry)

Other: anything that my superior demands, including dropping everything to spend with a brother who is sick or old.

This is the same routine for every friar. We allocate 6 hours and 45 min for ministry.

How do we handle this? We simply put the congregation on hold, all 3,000 of them. The deal is very simple. If you want our priests in your parish, you’ll have to make due with the time that they can give you.

Your assumption is that celibates have no other commitments. That assumption is incorrect. If the man is not a member of a religious community, he has a mother, father, brothers and sisters, nephews and nieces, friends and colleagues to whom he gives time. Diocesan priests usually live within the diocese of origin. They are close to home, family and friends. I’ll grant you that they have more time than a priest who is also a friar, brother, monk or clerk regular.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I bet you that I’m in the same boat as you and I’m celibate. Check this out

4:45 Matins
5:15 Silent Prayer
6:00 Lauds
6:30 Lectio Divina
7:30 Mass
8:15 Breakfast
8:45 Clean
9:30 Leave for ministry
12:00 Midday Prayer
12:30 Lunch
1:00 Clean
1:30 Leave for ministry
4:30 Vespers
5:00 Silent Prayer
6:00 Supper
6:45 Clean
7:15 Ministry
8:30 Community recreation
10:30 Night Prayer (Begin Grand Silence)

Mondays: laundry instead of AM ministry
Wednesday: manual labor instead of PM ministry
Saturday: manual labor instead of PM ministry
Sunday: community recreation all day

First weekend of each month: Community chapter from Fri to Sun

Holy Days and Solemnities: Mass and community all day (no ministry)

Other: anything that my superior demands, including dropping everything to spend with a brother who is sick or old.

This is the same routine for every friar. We allocate 6 hours and 45 min for ministry.

How do we handle this? We simply put the congregation on hold, all 3,000 of them. The deal is very simple. If you want our priests in your parish, you’ll have to make due with the time that they can give you.

Your assumption is that celibates have no other commitments. That assumption is incorrect. If the man is not a member of a religious community, he has a mother, father, brothers and sisters, nephews and nieces, friends and colleagues to whom he gives time. Diocesan priests usually live within the diocese of origin. They are close to home, family and friends. I’ll grant you that they have more time than a priest who is also a friar, brother, monk or clerk regular.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
It is quite obvious why you are not allowed a wife and 10 children. The toughest one is Grand Silence from 10PM to 8AM. But I think it may be worth a try in the GTO household.
 
It is quite obvious why you are not allowed a wife and 10 children. The toughest one is Grand Silence from 10PM to 8AM. But I think it may be worth a try in the GTO household.
:rotfl: That was good.

But my point is that any priest who is a member of a religious community probably spends less time at the office than a married priest, because the married priest is a secular man. We probably spend less time at the office than the average lay person spends at his office.

Fraternallly,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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