Sspx

[MichCath]

There is an SSPX chapel reasonably close to where I live.

It’s close enough that it’s in our phone book. My problem is that they advertise themselves as a regular Catholic Church and call out the fact that they have a “Traditional Latin Mass” in the phone book.

That bothers me. The ad makes no mention of SSPX.

Unless you already know what SSPX is and that that is an SSPX chapel, you’d have no clue.

Any unsuspecting individual would open up the phone book and see “so and so Catholic Church-Traditional Latin Mass”

I guess there’s nothing I can do, but what do you all think of this?

 

[PaulDupre]

Personally, I think the diocese should sue the SSPX to make them stop claiming to be Catholic, since they are no longer a part of the “Universal” (Catholic) Church.

Just my opinion,
Paul

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That bothers me. The ad makes no mention of SSPX.

Unless you already know what SSPX is and that that is an SSPX chapel, you’d have no clue

I have never heard of these before. How do you spot one if they make no mention of being a SSPX church?

 

[UBERROGO]

what is sspx???

 

[computerguy]

UBERROGO:

what is sspx???

I think it’s Society of Saint Pius X

 

[tradconvert]

The SSPX is the Society of Saint Pius the Tenth and yes there are issues of their status in relation to the Vatican. But I wouldn’t think twice about whether they are people you should or shoudn’t associate with. Some are extreme in their views and give the SSPX a bit of a dicey name, but the vast majority of the faithful who attend the traditional latin masses (whether at the SSPX or indult chapels) are simply devout Catholics who are practising their faith in an entirely correct and appropriate manner.

If by chance you were to attend a mass at the SSPX chapel near you, you will experience a very holy and spiritual place where the traditional latin mass is said fully consistent with the precepts of the ritual as contained in the 1962 missal, before the wholesale changes to the mass were instituted by the Vatican 2 council. Don’t get hung up by the way they advertise, they are people devoted to ensuring the traditions of the church are fully upheld.

 

[MichCath]

tradconvert:

The SSPX is the Society of Saint Pius the Tenth and yes there are issues of their status in relation to the Vatican. But I wouldn’t think twice about whether they are people you should or shoudn’t associate with. Some are extreme in their views and give the SSPX a bit of a dicey name, but the vast majority of the faithful who attend the traditional latin masses (whether at the SSPX or indult chapels) are simply devout Catholics who are practising their faith in an entirely correct and appropriate manner.

If by chance you were to attend a mass at the SSPX chapel near you, you will experience a very holy and spiritual place where the traditional latin mass is said fully consistent with the precepts of the ritual as contained in the 1962 missal, before the wholesale changes to the mass were instituted by the Vatican 2 council. Don’t get hung up by the way they advertise, they are people devoted to ensuring the traditions of the church are fully upheld.

You’re probably correct that the main reason that people go to an SSPX chapel is because they miss the old way.

However, all SSPX priests, bishops, deacons, nuns, brothers, teachers, and administrators have been excommunicated. SSPX was declared to be in schism in 1970 by Pope Paul. The top people were publicly excommunicated in 1988 by JPII, and all other religious in SSPX were excommunicated by their actions.

The automatic excommunication does NOT apply directly to the congregation, that issue is a little hazy. If the people are aware of the 1988 excommunications, then taking communion there is a mortal sin. They (the leadership) have denied the authority of the Pope to enact rules they don’t like, yet still claim authority to the Pope.

Just look at their website and you’ll see the attacks on the Mass, on current Catholic Doctrine, etc.

I am hung up on the way they advertise because they are not recognized by the Vatican as a Catholic church. The priest has been excommunicated, they are not authorized to hold any mass, much less the Latin mass.

The fact that someone who has no clue what they are would not be in sin isn’t the point.

I will say this: I would not be surprised if some sort of settlement is reached. There has been quite a bit of talk that Pope Benedict has met with their leader and they may reconcile SSPX with the Catholic Church.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

I will say this: I would not be surprised if some sort of settlement is reached. There has been quite a bit of talk that Pope Benedict has met with their leader and they may reconcile SSPX with the Catholic Church.

I saw online, an interview today with SSPX Bishop Williamson, and let me tell you, if that man has HIS way, there will be no reconciliation for he holds that the church has completely lost the Catholic Faith.

Jaypeeto3

 

[axolotl]

Roman_Catholic:

I have never heard of these before. How do you spot one if they make no mention of being a SSPX church?

Probably the smae way I spotted my local sspv chapel. I was driving down a road I don’t normally use, and came across St. Therese of the Child Jesus which labeled itself as having a traditional Latin mass. I know which churches in my diocese have indults, and this ain’t one of them. I also knew they weren’t SSPX because St Peregrine is my local SSPX place. Were they SSPV, CMRI, something else?

So I went home and googled. SSPV. Right aroung the corner from me. Whodathunkit.

 

[mike182d]

A group that intentionally operates by means of deception to win supporters is clearly in heresy.

 

[Steadfast]

MichCath:

There is an SSPX chapel reasonably close to where I live.

It’s close enough that it’s in our phone book. My problem is that they advertise themselves as a regular Catholic Church and call out the fact that they have a “Traditional Latin Mass” in the phone book.

That bothers me. The ad makes no mention of SSPX.

Unless you already know what SSPX is and that that is an SSPX chapel, you’d have no clue.

Any unsuspecting individual would open up the phone book and see “so and so Catholic Church-Traditional Latin Mass”

I guess there’s nothing I can do, but what do you all think of this?

Is that the one on Fourteen Mile in Fraser?

 

[srp643]

According to Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, SSPX is NOT in “formal” schism but is in a “situation of separation.” My understanding is SSPX has 4 conditions for reunion with Rome:

1. wider permission for celebration of the pre-Vatican II Latin Tridentine mass
2. lifting of the excommunications of the 4 bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988
3. recognizing a right to criticize certain aspects of Vatican II, especially its teaching on religious liberty
4. a canonical structure to provide traditionalists with some autonomy, such as an apostolic administration

Quite frankly, I have no problem with these conditions even though I only infrequently attend the Latin mass. It is theologically impossible to abrogate the Latin mass since it was the only liturgy the Church prayed for over 1500 years. As for condition 3, the Church seems to tolerate priests criticizing its policies all the time (just recently several Canadian priests publicly complained that same-sex marriages should be allowed). I think a healthy dialogue about Vatican II and what it really meant would be useful given the crisis we are in.

Dominus vobiscum.

 

[srp643]

Let me be more specific about Cardinal Hoyos’ statements. Note that he is head of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, which oversees local implementation of Pope John Paul II’s “indult” for use of the traditional Latin Mass.

In a recent interview with 30 Days magazine the Cardinal stated that “the SSPX is not in formal schism”, that the traditional Latin Mass “has never been abolished” and that concerning Vatican II and the post-Conciliar changes in the Church, “we are all free to formulate critical observations on what doesn’t concern dogma and the essential discipline of the Church itself.” The Cardinal went on to say that “critical contributions of that sort that can come from (SSPX) can be a treasure for the Church.”

I think the Church needs to recognize the importance of this type of traditionalism and orthodoxy. Based on my research on Catholic seminaries in the US, it appears the more orthodox the seminary, the more seminarians, plain and simple. If the Latin Mass cannot be abolished, and many understandably want and can benefit from it, then I support its wide and generous application. In any event, our SSPX brethren need our prayers. Remember they are only trying to do what they believe is best for the Church, and therefore all of us.

Ostende nobis, Domine, misericordiam tuam.

 

[Marilena]

“You’re probably correct that the main reason that people go to an SSPX chapel is because they miss the old way.However, all SSPX priests, bishops, deacons, nuns, brothers, teachers, and administrators have been excommunicated. SSPX was declared to be in schism in 1970 by Pope Paul. The top people were publicly excommunicated in 1988 by JPII, and all other religious in SSPX were excommunicated by their actions”

Where is the link for this information ypu hav e provided? Are you speaking of the nuns, priest ext, from earlier times, or today in 2006? Can you provide a link from the Vatican that states this? I know what JP2 stated, you can see it here, but precisely what time period are you referring to? Here is what JP2 stated:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html

 

[cestusdei]

One of those traditions is obedience to the Roman Pontiff. They fall short there. Schism is never a good thing. I do wish they would return to the fold.

 

[srp643]

cestusdei:

One of those traditions is obedience to the Roman Pontiff. They fall short there. Schism is never a good thing. I do wish they would return to the fold.

Agreed Father, sadly. After reading up on what they are about, my heart aches for their reunion with Rome given their great intentions. I love the Latin Mass, it is truly phenomenal. Can’t even believe we are discussing this in a “non-Catholic” area of the forum. in the end we may find them the most Catholic of all…

May God reconcile our beloved Church with the SSPX in His infinite goodness.

Deo gratias.

 

[msproule]

Steadfast:

Is that the one on Fourteen Mile in Fraser?

I haven’t seen a reply yet from MichCath so I will chime in.

The chapel in Fraser is not even SSPX…it is basically an independent sedevacantist site, I believe. From what I recall, they broke away from the SSPX because they were not hard-line enough! There is another one like it in Highland.

The only SSPX chapel I know of in the Detroit area is in Redford, and I think it may even be explicitly stated as such on the sign out front.

 

[StMarkEofE]

MichCath:

You’re probably correct that the main reason that people go to an SSPX chapel is because they miss the old way.

However, all SSPX priests, bishops, deacons, nuns, brothers, teachers, and administrators have been excommunicated. SSPX was declared to be in schism in 1970 by Pope Paul. The top people were publicly excommunicated in 1988 by JPII, and all other religious in SSPX were excommunicated by their actions.

The automatic excommunication does NOT apply directly to the congregation, that issue is a little hazy. If the people are aware of the 1988 excommunications, then taking communion there is a mortal sin. They (the leadership) have denied the authority of the Pope to enact rules they don’t like, yet still claim authority to the Pope.

Just look at their website and you’ll see the attacks on the Mass, on current Catholic Doctrine, etc.

I am hung up on the way they advertise because they are not recognized by the Vatican as a Catholic church. The priest has been excommunicated, they are not authorized to hold any mass, much less the Latin mass.

The fact that someone who has no clue what they are would not be in sin isn’t the point.

I will say this: I would not be surprised if some sort of settlement is reached. There has been quite a bit of talk that Pope Benedict has met with their leader and they may reconcile SSPX with the Catholic Church.

What gets me is that prior to VatII this Latin Mass was fully legitimate, then pretty much the next thing you know it isnt. What makes the Novus Ordum licit and the Latin Mass illicit? What changed? Why was it right for all Catholics one day and not right the next. Were all those Latin Masses heretical and the NO now corrects all those errors? I just cant see how a Pope can suddenly declare the old way wrong and the new way right simply by say so. There was no transition period that I know of, it was just initiated and that was that. Many faithful were confused and resentful and many left the church as the result of these radical changes. That is saying a lot for a church who used to brag about itself being one and unchangable and universal. And as we have seen since this opened a pandora’s box of revisionist theological thought and practices. The Vatican is trying to put the “toothpaste back into the tube” but it is too late for some Im sure.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

MichCath:

There is an SSPX chapel reasonably close to where I live.

It’s close enough that it’s in our phone book. My problem is that they advertise themselves as a regular Catholic Church and call out the fact that they have a “Traditional Latin Mass” in the phone book.

That bothers me. The ad makes no mention of SSPX.

Unless you already know what SSPX is and that that is an SSPX chapel, you’d have no clue.

Any unsuspecting individual would open up the phone book and see “so and so Catholic Church-Traditional Latin Mass”

I guess there’s nothing I can do, but what do you all think of this?

I recommend that you have your parish and diocese make clear that they are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. They can do this in their Diocesan newspaper and parish bulletins.

You might consider including the following…

The Pontifical Congregation of Bishops, has stated:

“Participation in their [Society of St. Pius X (SSPX)] services is objectively illicit because they are not performed in full communion with the Church, and because they are a source of grave scandal and division in the ecclesial community.” (Response to Letter from the Very Rev. Norbert Brunner, Bishop of Sion, Switzerland, to the Prefect for the Congregation of Bishops, requesting clarifications regarding status of the followers of Monsignor Lefebvre, response dated October 31, 1996)

**"*The priests and faithful are warned ****not to support the schism of Archbishop Lefebvre, otherwise they shall incur ipso facto the very grave penalty of *excommunication. (From the Office of the Congregation for Bishops, 1 July 1988.)

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

StMarkEofE:

What gets me is that prior to VatII this Latin Mass was fully legitimate, then pretty much the next thing you know it isnt. What makes the Novus Ordum licit and the Latin Mass illicit? What changed?

What changed is the form of the Mass, which is a discipline.

The Latin Mass is still legitimate and licit when done according to the discipline of the Church.

Before Trent the Missals of each diocese where legitimate and licit then after Trent they no longer were, only the Missal of Rome was. What changed there?