St Augustine and the Keys

[Catholic_Dude]

I was debating with a protestant and they put out this passage from Augustine. Here is a link to it, It is from
Book1 of
On Christian Doctrine by St Augustine:
CHAP. 18.–THE KEYS GIVEN TO THE CHURCH.

1. He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be, loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church. For he who does not believe that his sins can be pardoned, falls into despair, and becomes worse as if no greater good remained for him than to be evil, when he has ceased to have faith in the results of his own repentance.

I told them that it sounds more like the Confession, even though it mentions keys and binding. And what about passages like Matt18:18? Does it square up with this quote?

So why does Augustine say this?

 

[Todd_Easton]

You may find the articles on The Power of the Keys and The Pope (Part II, section (1), in the Catholic Encyclopedia of interest. They mention St. Augustine & the Keys.

 

[RyanL]

Perhaps these things will shed light on how St. Augustine felt about Peter himself having the power of Binding and Loosing (Isaiah 22:22/Matt 16:18) from the Chair of Peter. St. Augustine clearly teaches in the following citations the authority of the Church, which alone can bind with the authority of God.

Augustine

“Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’” (*Sermons *295:2 [A.D. 411]).

“Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies” (*Commentary on Psalm 108 *1 [A.D. 415]).

“Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?” (*Commentary on John *56:1 [A.D. 416]).

“If all men throughout the world were such as you most vainly accuse them of having been, what has the chair of the Roman church done to you, in which Peter sat, and in which Anastasius sits today?” (*Against the Letters of Petilani *2:118 [A.D. 402]).

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church’ . . . [Matt. 16:18]. Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement, Clement by Anacletus, Anacletus by Evaristus . . . " (*Letters *53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

“There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]” (*Against the Letter of Mani Called “The Foundation” *5 [A.D. 397]).

“[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!” (*Sermons *131:10 [A.D. 411]).

 

[RyanL]

What you may also keep in mind is that this is not an “either/or” teaching. It’s not “either Peter or the Church” has the keys, but rather it’s a “both/and”. Be aware of false dichotomies when speaking with Protestants - there are very few things in their theology that are not “either/or”, and there are a great many things in ours that are “both/and”. Example: God forgives sins, not some priest! (Either God or the priest.) Example: There is one mediator between God and man, so Mary is no one of account! (Either Jesus or Mary.) Example: The Eucharist isn’t Christ, it’s only symbollic - “do this in memory of me”. (Either it’s a symbol or it’s real.) In all of these instances, it’s actually a hearty Catholic “both/and”.

Good luck, keep your eyes up and your chin down, return to your corner, and come out fighting!

RyanL

 

[petra]

RyanL:

Perhaps these things will shed light on how St. Augustine felt about Peter himself having the power of Binding and Loosing (Isaiah 22:22/Matt 16:18) from the Chair of Peter. St. Augustine clearly teaches in the following citations the authority of the Church, which alone can bind with the authority of God.

It is important to note the date of Augustinian quotes. Later in life (in A.D. 428), his views on the Chair of Peter matured. In Retractions he clarified or corrected previous views. He wrote:

“In one place I said… that the Church had been built on Peter as the Rock… but in fact it was not said to Peter, “Thou art the Rock,” but rather “Thou art Peter.” The Rock was Jesus Christ, Peter having confessed Him as all the Church confesses Him, He was then called Peter, “the Rock”… (ed, for his faith) …Between these two sentiments let the reader choose the most probable.”
St. Augustine, Retractions - 13th Sermon; Contra Julianum 1:13

He adds:
"Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them “I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee.”

 

[CARose]

petra:

He adds:
"Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them “I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee.”

Where does either Christ or Augustine say this?

CARose

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

That doesn’t sound much like Saint Augustine. It was most certainly “Thou art Rock,” because out of “Rock” (petros/petra) we GET Peter. The name couldn’t come before the word. To say these things, it sounds like he’s asking to convert to some non-Catholic religion.

 

[jimmy]

There are different interpretations of who and what the rock is. Some of the fathers say it is the faith of Peter, some say it is Peter himself and some say it is Christ. All of them are correct in a way. Christ made Peter the Rock, that is why he renames him Rock. It is due to his faith that he is made the Rock. It is also Christ who this faith is founded upon. Peter was given a primacy above all the Apostles.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

petra:

It is important to note the date of Augustinian quotes. Later in life (in A.D. 428), his views on the Chair of Peter matured. In Retractions he clarified or corrected previous views. He wrote:

“In one place I said… that the Church had been built on Peter as the Rock… but in fact it was not said to Peter, “Thou art the Rock,” but rather “Thou art Peter.” The Rock was Jesus Christ, Peter having confessed Him as all the Church confesses Him, He was then called Peter, “the Rock”… (ed, for his faith) …Between these two sentiments let the reader choose the most probable.”
St. Augustine, Retractions - 13th Sermon; Contra Julianum 1:13

He adds:
"Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them “I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee.”

I looked around and cant find his book about “Retractions”.
Does anyone know where those quotes are online in context? I get uncomfortable when I see “…” without a source.

Why would someone write a book like that in the first place? Or was it just a few corrections?

 

[kepha1]

I looked around for over an hour and couldn’t find anything either.
What little I did find were short phrase references, and NONE of them referred to Retractions in ‘sermons’ but in Chapters. But Augustine did write retractions, according to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia.

It’s a shame the enemies of the truth must glean over church fathers writings with tweezers and microscopes the same way they view scriptures.

I suspect you hit upon an anti-Catholic invention like Vicarius Filii Dei or Gelasii Papaem Dicta.

"Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them “I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee.”

I can accept the blue, but the red is a lie from hell in the absence of context. Text without a context is a pretext.

 

[jimmy]

I just did a little searching on the internet. This link here claims that Augustine did not write any retractations of his Sermons as petra claims. I have only found petra’s claim on another forum.

Augustine did not write retractations of Sermons

 

[Roman_Army]

That is a very good passage of St. Augustine. He meant what he meant. He said that the Church (Roman Catholic Church) has the keys of binding and loosing. Confession is required in the Church to forgive Grave Sin. If after we confess our sins, we don’t believe that we are forgiven, then we are not forgiven. You have to let go of those sins and never do them again. Once the priest says “I absolve you of your sins…” you must believe that.

 

[thessalonian]

You need to think more broadly with Catholic theology. It is no contradiction that the Church has the keys any more than it is a contradition that prophets and apostles are the foundation of the Church and that Christ is the foundation of the Church. Eph 2:20 vs. 1 Cor 3:11. The papacy has the keys, according to Aquinas the sacraments, and the keys are delegated. That Augustine identifes in one place Peter with the keys and in another the Church with the keys is not a contradiction at all.

Blessings

 

[petra]

Catholic Dude:

I looked around and cant find his book about “Retractions”.
Does anyone know where those quotes are online in context? I get uncomfortable when I see “…” without a source.

Why would someone write a book like that in the first place? Or was it just a few corrections?

I haven’t been able to find an online text source that provides this work in its entirety, but it is available through a third party resaler from Barnes and Noble. It is:
Saint Augustine. the Retractations. Fathers of the Church, Volume 60. Translated By Sister Mary Inez Bogan. Roy J. Deferrari, Ed. ISBN 081320060

It is my understanding that Augustine wrote this to provide clarification to earlier writings. I don’t know what the extent is of this work, but I’ll soon find out. It is supposed to ship in a few days.

 

[petra]

jimmy:

I just did a little searching on the internet. This link here claims that Augustine did not write any retractations of his Sermons as petra claims. I have only found petra’s claim on another forum.

Augustine did not write retractations of Sermons

I did not claim that this work contains retractations of sermons. I didn’t even mention sermons. I said it is a clarification or correction of previous views. The name “Retractations” means “Reconsiderations.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

kepha1:

Text without a context is a pretext.

I have to remember this one.

I admit I miss the context sometimes when I quote things, but I have seen far too many times a passage somewhere has been quoted and it looks very damming against the Catholic side, but once I read the context it usually is a misinterpretation of the passage.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

petra:

In Retractions he clarified or corrected previous views. He wrote:

“In one place I said… that the Church had been built on Peter as the Rock… but in fact it was not said to Peter, “Thou art the Rock,” but rather “Thou art Peter.” The Rock was Jesus Christ, Peter having confessed Him as all the Church confesses Him, He was then called Peter, “the Rock”… (ed, for his faith) …Between these two sentiments let the reader choose the most probable.”
St. Augustine, Retractions - 13th Sermon; Contra Julianum 1:13

He adds:
"Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them “I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee.”

now that I reread this some things do stick out. If I had to guess he was not correcting a doctrinal errors he wrote, but some clarifications.

First of all he mentions only 1 place of the many times he has talked about Peter, so thats a good argument for clarification.

Also at the end it says let the reader choose which sounds better. So right there it looks like he was presented with two valid views that he felt should also be included.

As Ryan said this could easily be an “both/and” situation.

Then again context would really clear some stuff up.

 

[jimmy]

petra:

I did not claim that this work contains retractations of sermons. I didn’t even mention sermons. I said it is a clarification or correction of previous views. The name “Retractations” means “Reconsiderations.”

You claimed that he wrote this in his “Retractations”. He wrote nothing about sermons in his “retractations”, yet you bring up a quote concerning a sermon from the Retractations.

 

[jimmy]

petra:

I did not claim that this work contains retractations of sermons. I didn’t even mention sermons. I said it is a clarification or correction of previous views. The name “Retractations” means “Reconsiderations.”

Have you read the above quote from his retractations or have you just read it from another website? If so, which volume was it in?

 

[petra]

kepha1:

I looked around for over an hour and couldn’t find anything either.
What little I did find were short phrase references, and NONE of them referred to Retractions in ‘sermons’ but in Chapters. But Augustine did write retractions, according to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia.

I couldn’t find the full text online eiether. But this work does exist. I just ordered a copy from Barnes and Nobel.

It’s a shame the enemies of the truth must glean over church fathers writings with tweezers and microscopes the same way they view scriptures.

Are you referring to me? I am no enemy of the Truth. I’m a Catholic, but I am admittedly starting to think Orthodoxy is the real deal. I am completely committed to the Truth, wherever it leads me.

I’m currently reading Eusebuis’ History of the Church. I’m at the end of Book 3 and it is at the point in history in which Clement is the Bishop of Rome. I have to tell you, I have not read anything that even hinted that Peter had primacy over the other apostles. In fact, equal recognition is given to Paul and Peter as being the founders of the Church–perhaps even a little more to Paul due to his conversion experience and having been personally taught by Christ when he was caught up to the third heaven. Also, the credit afforded to Peter and Paul appears to be due to their energetic efforts to spread the gospel and establish churches in many cities. These guys were very, very busy and very influencial.

"Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them “I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee.”

I can accept the blue, but the red is a lie from hell in the absence of context. Text without a context is a pretext.

Well, apparently Augustine did say this. When my book arrives, I can provide context.