St.Joan of Arc Crazy?

[Startingcatholic]

I have struggled for a long time to believe the story of St. Joan of Arc. To me her story seems much more likely that she had neurological issues than anything else. But obviously given that she is a Catholic saint we as Catholics don’t believe that. What are arguments that she wasn’t crazy or had neurological issues?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

People have said the same for Moses, Paul, and others who saw visions.

 

[Fauken]

She was also examined by both French and English theologians regarding her visions and understanding of theology. I’m no doctor of theology, but from posts I’ve seen on here made by people with genuine mental problems, if I could tell their theology was off, I imagine they could too. If I remember right, even the English, in their thirst for her blood, couldn’t pin her down with heresy.

EDIT: According to New Advent, the English did find her guilty of heresy, but only because she resumed wearing male clothing in prison (ostensibly to protect herself, but they didn’t care).

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm

" Moreover, as one of the points upon which she had been condemned was the wearing of male apparel, a resumption of that attire would alone constitute a relapse into heresy, and this within a few days happened, owing, it was afterwards alleged, to a trap deliberately laid by her jailers with the connivance of Cauchon. Joan, either to defend her modesty from outrage, or because her women’s garments were taken from her, or, perhaps, simply because she was weary of the struggle and was convinced that her enemies were determined to have her blood upon some pretext, once more put on the man’s dress which had been purposely left in her way. The end now came soon. On 29 May a court of thirty-seven judges decided unanimously that the Maid must be treated as a relapsed heretic, and this sentence was actually carried out the next day (30 May, 1431) amid circumstances of intense pathos."

 

[TK421]

Probably not, but there’s no foul in acknowledging that a saint may have had some significant neurological issues; that doesn’t at all take away from heroic virtue. If anything, it adds to it.

I strongly recommend watching the Passion of Joan of Arc (1928). Great presentation of the events of her trial and death.

 

[Limoncello4021]

If you read all the transcripts from her trials–and they are all there, word for word–she comes across as 100% sane. It is certainly an unusual saint’s story, but there are lots of strange happenings in the lives of saints since God Himself can’t be pinned down. There are a lot of excellent studies on Joan and her accomplishments, so I’d suggest you read about her.

 

[Maximian]

What is undeniable is that she was an extremely good military strategist

 

[Tis_Bearself]

What are arguments that she wasn’t crazy or had neurological issues?

She’s a canonized saint of the Church, and God does not permit his Church to err in such weighty matters.

And part of the reason for her canonization is the transcripts, as noted above, where she not only came across as sane but demonstrated a theological understanding that was highly unusual for a young, uneducated country girl.

If you have a problem accepting the story of Joan of Arc, it might be best if you simply concede to the Church’s judgment and move on to saints whom you can better relate to. There are thousands of them out there. I’m pretty sure we all have a couple people whose sainthood makes us raise an eyebrow, but the decision is not up to us, we don’t have all the facts, and we’re called to trust in God to guide His Church.

 

[Inbonum]

But obviously given that she is a Catholic saint we as Catholics don’t believe that. What are arguments that she wasn’t crazy or had neurological issues?

I don’t see why you think that even if st. Joan had neurological problems couldn’t be a saint?
You are wrong if you think that all saints were perfect without any mental tribulations.
Illness does not exclude sainthood.

Father of st.Therese of Lisieux, st.Louis Martin is example of saint with mental suffering. He suffered mentally for years.

Some months after his fourth and favorite daughter, Thérèse, entered the convent, Louis showed preliminary signs of mental illness. He experienced dementia, speech impediments, obsessions, groundless fears, feelings of depression and exaltation, and a tendency to run away. After he was missing for three days, his daughter Celine received a telegram from him in Le Havre, 24 miles to the north. When she found him, he said, “I wanted to go and love God with all my heart!” Care in an asylum became the only solution. The family tearfully admitted him to Bon Sauveur asylum, coarsely known among townsfolk as the “madhouse.”
It was a profound humiliation for the family. Unkind gossip spread like ghastly perfume. In times of lucidity, Louis felt his abasement; “I know why the good God has given me this trial,” he said, “I have never had any humiliations in my life, and I needed to have some.” He later experienced two strokes and cerebral arteriosclerosis, which confined him to a wheelchair.

You can see other examples here

https://owlcation.com/humanities/Saints-Who-Struggled-With-Mental-Disorders

 

[CoffeeFanatic]

I don’t think she was crazy. God has a tendency of using the least likely people to do things and they will do things better than the likely people ever would have. She was a true martyr. I’m convinced the same people would have martyred the Theotokos and called her crazy had she been in front of them too. St. Joan of Arc was guilty of being a devout woman who followed God over all else. Her existence shamed them all.

 

[Startingcatholic]

Absolutely! Her neurological issues wouldn’t keep her from being a saint. Rather what I was saying was the neurological issues and how they relate the validity of the visions!

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I have struggled for a long time to believe the story of St. Joan of Arc. To me her story seems much more likely that she had neurological issues than anything else. But obviously given that she is a Catholic saint we as Catholics don’t believe that. What are arguments that she wasn’t crazy or had neurological issues?

Some “scholars” desperately want her to be crazy to make her story go away.

But here’s the thing—as a teenage girl, she led an army.
Of grown-up men.
Who were under no obligation to follow her.

Have you ever seen somebody in a true psychotic break or a flare up of schizophrenic symptoms?
Trust me. You are not going to follow them into battle.

 

[MikeInVA]

What are arguments that she wasn’t crazy or had neurological issues?

It is not appropriate to make such judgements on a person when you cannot possibly verify any of it. You are not required to hold any specific opinion about her as a matter of faith. If you do not believe that she is worthy of your veneration is fine, to propose that she was mentally ill is not.

 

[Startingcatholic]

I am not bad mouthing Saint Joan of Arc. She’s a Saint I want to learn more about! But I was simply wondering if there was an answer to this viewpoint of her possibly having a mental condition. Furthermore I am not questioning baselessly. Look at this article
https://www.epilepsybehavior.com/article/S1525-5050(15)00698-8/fulltext

Edit: I wanted to add that I do believe that she is worthy of veneration 100%! Whether or not she had neurological issues that could have been the cause of the visions would not have disqualified her from being a saint. Because she was an intensely faithful Catholic even without the visions going into account!

 

[Inbonum]

In general don’t take visions too strictly because in every vision there is also a human factor no matter what and vision didn’t make her saint in the end.
I’ve got the impression that you think that one cannot be saint and be mentally ill/have neurological issues at the same time or that her sainthood would be questionable if that was the case.

Furthermore I am not questioning baselessly. Look at this article

Non-believers will often say that there is no visions or anything mystical, just hallucinations.
She isn’t first saint who was missunderstood.
Saint Gemma was proclaimed histerycal by psychiatrist. She wasn’t, she really had mystical experiences but obviously some doctors didn’t believe it and couldn’t accept anything that isn’t explainable in their or natural way.
In case of every saint/blessed/venerable Church is only authority so rather read what Church says about her visions.

 

[Startingcatholic]

In general don’t take visions too strictly because in every vision there is also a human factor no matter what and vision didn’t make her saint in the end.
I’ve got the impression that you think that one cannot be saint and be mentally ill/have neurological issues at the same time or that her sainthood would be questionable if that was the case.

I want to clarify because a significant amount of you have said this. I in no way believe that neurological issues or being mentally ill keeps you from being a saint. All I was saying was that neurological issues could have been a reason for the visions. I don’t understand why people think that I think it disqualified her sainthood. I am only talking about the visions.

 

[Wesrock]

From what little research I’ve done, she was questioned heavily to determine if she was mad. Madness had happened in the dauphin’s family and that was something they were worried about. Whatever else was going on, she seemed both perfectly sane and also devout. They did not want to he associated with madness at all.

Now, I know skeptics may say “hearing voices =/= sane”. However, in all other areas she did not seem mad at all. She acted and reasoned normally.

Honestly, I was actually surprised in a good way by what I read in regards to her character.

 

[Inbonum]

To me her story seems much more likely that she had neurological issues than anything else. But obviously given that she is a Catholic saint we as Catholics don’t believe that.

Because this sounds like “it is one or another, it cannot be both”.

 

[spruce]

Startingcatholic:

What are arguments that she wasn’t crazy or had neurological issues?

She’s a canonized saint of the Church, and God does not permit his Church to err in such weighty matters.

I am not so sure. Since the Church removed the Devil’s Advocate stage of canonization, I think She is more susceptible to error with this. Either way, God guides us but He also allows us to make mistakes, even weighty matters.

 

[spruce]

I have struggled for a long time to believe the story of St. Joan of Arc. To me her story seems much more likely that she had neurological issues than anything else. But obviously given that she is a Catholic saint we as Catholics don’t believe that. What are arguments that she wasn’t crazy or had neurological issues?

Startingcatholic, if you still have questions about Joan of Arc, I suggest you continue to research and find people who will tolerate your questions until you can make a definite, rational decision in your mind. That may be that you turn your doubts over to God, but if it isn’t, ask away.

 

[MikeInVA]

I don’t understand why people think that I think it disqualified her sainthood.

You are the only one who is questioning her sanctity by reason of insanity. I take issue with someone today making a diagnosis of someone’s mental state who lived hundreds of years ago. There is no way to verify one way or the other, and it can only serve to detract from the person - saint or not.