St. Paul on Women's roles

[Jerome7]

The passage of Saint Paul on women’s roles remain controversial today. Essentially, the question is whether God intends men and women to have different roles in the Church, the family, and society – or not. And if so, what is the extent of these differences in roles?

Secular society has already decided that there should be no differences. And this is taken to an extreme in the cases of same-sex marriage, gender ideology, etc. But I don’t see how we can oppose these errors without also asserting differences in roles for men and women. I don’t buy the explanation that Paul was merely speaking about his culture, so that his words would not apply to us today. All of Sacred Scripture is Christ speaking to us.

 

[adgloriam]

Yes, men and woman are obviously different. Why should that difference not extend to their roles?

As for everything else I find your formulation to broad and general to actually say anything.

[I’m not an expert on ‘gender roles’ and I have never been especially worried about the issue.]

 

[Lea101]

The church hasn’t really been extremely specific about this. However, clergy aside, the Church says that women can work outside the home, be political leaders etc. They do mention the ‘feminine genius’ but JPII didn’t really define it, just kind of gave the stereotypical feminine traits that come along with it. Ultimately it simply means that women can have these jobs, but they shouldn’t push aside whatever feminine qualities they may have to do them.

As for family, the guy is supposed to be the head and the woman is supposed to be the heart (although again, they didn’t specify exactly what they should do). The Church did acknowledge that the specifics may look different in each family though.

I keep hearing ‘difference in roles’ but technically besides clergy and being the spiritual leader of the home, men and women can do the same things as long as they don’t force themselves to be a certain way.

Remember, men and women are different, but men are also different from men. Women are also different from women. We all have our differences and ultimately we just use our own gifts to do things. This isn’t necessarily gender specific, but it can be applied in this area.

 

[Seagull]

I heard, yesterday, that Satan attacks two Bible books the most -
to plant seeds of doubt - etc - one is Genesis -
Specifically - Adam and Eve -
Satan tries to down play the entire scenario that occurred.
Even her origin from Adam, himself.

Paul - talks about Eve - in one of his letters.

The other book is Revelations.
Especially the Queen of Heaven - being victorious !

 

[D.Erasmus.R]

If males and females each have a particular nature then they will naturally be drawn their roles without having to be told them. If gender roles are to strict people’s freedom is lost and their individual talents are wasted. The idea of gender roles being completely different leads to morality being relative to gender.

Often things considered to be feminine virtues are really universal virtues. Humility, gentleness, mercy, caringness, are considered to be feminine virtues but really men should practice them.

 

[Dovekin]

I completely agree with what you say. It may be totally pedantic for me to say the following, but I think it is important in understanding where we come from.

“Feminine virtues” is an oxymoron. Our word virtue comes from the Latin word virtus, which means manliness. Vir is the Latin word for man. It has connotations of martial fitness, strength and courage. It is problematic within a framework of men and women being equal and complementary.

St Augustine, in his introduction to the lives of Ss. Perpetua and Felicity commended them for their virtue, by which he meant their standing up to the Emperor when they were martyred. They were true “vir,” true men, though their martyrdom was focussed on their vocations as mother and child’s nurse. So the problems of understanding virtue as virtus were known a long time ago.

 

[rose321]

Respectfully when it comes to St Paul understanding on Woman do we not have to look at his actions, his followers what is written also in St Paul own
written Epistles by him etc?

St Paul in his writings some of his epistles are for Woman to serve >>in his other Epistles he is against Woman speaking or teaching?

Then St Paul Epistle written…where St Paul is thanking Woman first in this Epistle not men, who worked followed with him in bringing forth his teaching on the Word to others. One woman in Antioch corrects rebukes Apollos on his teaching teaching Apollos about the resurrection he has yet not heard?

St Paul begins thanking >>first>>all the Woman and list their names, for serving him and bringing about his teachings to others, confused now?

Confused? Then we have scholars who say some of St Paul epistles were written by St Paul and a few of St Paul epistles… were not written by St Paul so when it comes to St Paul within his own writings, on Woman’s role, we see…a contradictions within St Paul his own writings, do we not on the role of Woman?
The Woman play a huge role in helping St Paul , because St Paul thanks theses Woman by Name even…then in a few of St Paul own writings Epistles, he contradicts his own words?

Respectfully toward just confused when reading St Paul’s own Epistles on Woman’s role, does he not?

Peace

 

[otrrl]

One of the fallacies is the generalization that (all) men have power in the Church. In fact, only a very few men have power in the Church.

With respect to the roles of lay persons in the church, I think we should only speak about roles, qualifications, etc. BUT NOT about gender. Both women and men ought to be able to fill lay roles in the Church, with no clericalism attached.

A special way I would want to see this done is for people to have LIMITED roles in the Church, especially TIME-LIMITED roles. If you want to be an usher, fine - one year. Then, somebody else has to do it. You wouldn’t be able to be an usher again your name came up from the bottom of the roll of parishioners. Same for other things, like altar servers, EMEs, etc.

It was very formative for me to be an altar boy for 8 years.I got to take my faith very seriously. But, the only way that happened years ago, was that nobody else wanted to get up so early to serve 6 a.m. Mass on Sunday, when we used to have 5 Masses on Sunday.

 

[D.Erasmus.R]

The idea of virtues comes from Aristotle’s ethics. They were personal charactersics that lead to good behaviour and the opposite of vices which were the same except lead to bad behaviour. I think Aristotle regarded clemency as one of the greatest virtues.
‘Vir’ may be like how ‘mankind’ refers to men and women.
The idea that virtues are solely masculine leads to the idea that women must become like men, or to sayings like, ‘the nature of women is entirely given over to vice,’ which is a saying that fits well with with the Protestant idea of total depravity.