St. (?) Tsar Nicholas II

  • Thread starter Thread starter Antonius_Lupus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Romanovs have always fascinated me and I do believe they were a very devout family, yes I agree with Theist Gal, that Our Ladys warnings at Fatima may have had something to do with their tragic and brutal deaths.
 
Alexios said:
Of course not everything that JPII did should necessarily be endorsed. Unless you’d like half-naked women parading bowls of censers up and down the aisle during Mass or kissing certain texts…

Or unless you think the Pope is somehow infallible in everything he says or does.
Click to expand...
:mad: I find your remark regarding JPII highly offensive, you may or may not agree with everything he did but please show some respect on a Catholic forum for a very beloved former Pontiff. Also who says things like half-naked women with bowls of censers and many of the other abuses that have come about were his personal responsibility? Blame those who w4ere responsible for committing these abuses.
 
kitkatty said:
:mad: I find your remark regarding JPII highly offensive, you may or may not agree with everything he did but please show some respect on a Catholic forum for a very beloved former Pontiff. Also who says things like half-naked women with bowls of censers and many of the other abuses that have come about were his personal responsibility? Blame those who w4ere responsible for committing these abuses.
Click to expand...
Alexios, my above reply was made before I read your second post where you clarify you believe JPII was a good and holy man. Yes, we are all human and that includes popes and as far as pope worshipping there are people who do tend to go a little far with that but I still feel your first post concerning was JPII was harsh and disrespectful to a good and holy man.
 
Woodstock,

Newsflash: I’m not Eastern Orthodox! I’m a Latin Rite Catholic of the traditional persuasion. Why did you think I was Orthodox? Probably because the personality cult of JPII has indeed become so widespread that any questioning of his actions come across as somehow unCatholic. What a sad self-indictment.

You probably thought I was Orthodox because of the -os part of Alexios; it’s only because I prefer the Greek ending of -os to the Latin ending of -us (Alexius), and because there is already a poster under the name of Alexius (who, ironically, is Eastern Catholic, I believe).

Theistgal,

How many priests, bishops, and laypersons out there saw these acts of his and thought, “Well, it’s OK since the Pope does it.” We will never know, but even ONE person is too many, and I’d bet it’s a few million more than that.
 
Antonius_Lupus said:
The Russian Orthodox Church venerates murdered Tsar Nicholas II as a martyr and saint.

I am currently learning alot about the Eastern Catholic Church, and I was wondering if the Catholic Church considers Tsar Nicholas a saint?

Can I pray to him?
Click to expand...
When I read this post I was very surprised…

Nicholas II was a weak leader. He was like the Jimmy Carter of the Russian Csars. In fact, the Russian revolution which led to his demise was building and buliding right under his nose in with some in the Duma.

And on a personal level he wasn’t even able to manage/protect his own home with the infiltration of Rasputin a human/devil creature preying on his wife and children.

He may be a small s saint but I don’t think he was extraordinarily holy given his lack of resistance to evil all around him.

I think he is being judged by his enemies rather than by his own merit.
 
Alexios said:
They were canonized as martyrs by ROCOR and as passion-bearers by the ROC-MP. Might be the other way around, but I think that’s right.

The “Last Romanovs” were exceptionally holy and devout people who suffered with great dignity the unfortunate trials the Lord saw fit to visit upon them.
Click to expand...
You’re right ROCOR canonized them as New Martyrs and the MP as Passion Bearers.

http://www.pamyat.ru/romanov_1.jpg

Holy New Martyrs of Russia, pray for us!

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
Now that I think about it, I beleive the only Russian Catholic parish in the US does devotions to them ( I THINK* being the keyword). I still wouldn’t recommend a devotion to them though. Bl. Karl I is an excellent monarch that is fully approved though and I recommend his cult 110%. : )

*Thoughts subject to change, correction, or being flat out wrong.
 
There are currently four Russian Greek Catholic parishes in the US: St. Michael, NYC; Our Lady of Fatima, San Fransisco; Denver (Fr. Chrysostom Frank); and El Segundo. I don’t know about OLF or St. Andrew’s in El Segundo but St. Michael’s and Denver do not have formal liturgical veneration of the Tsar.

Considering he at least assented to the repression of Greek Catholics, Russian and Ukrainian, until the 1905 Revolution there are mixed feelings about him with Greek Catholic communities.
FDRLB
 
Wowowow wait a moment.
John Paul 2 was perhaps one of THE greatest men of our time… Leave him out of this. He is a man that many people, Catholics, Orthodox, Buddhists, etc… all have a high respect for. I would suggest a comprehensive study of the man’s life and maybe get a sense of who he really was versus your negative comments against such a great man.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your defense of a great Pope of our times. Interestingly enough some of the first Panakhydas that were prayed for the late Holy Father were from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Archbishops Vsevolod and Antony, and Patriarch Filaret I especially remember). I have a picture of Patriarch Filaret offering one within an hour of being notified of the death of Pope John Paul II. Sadly much of the invective against him on this list and elswhere would seem to be from those who turn around and preach about this or that aspect of being a “traditional Catholic” when they bash their own Vicar of Christ and the visible See of the Magisterium. I knew Archbishop Lefebvre and taught in one of his schools for a while, and never heard him make a personal remark about the Holy Father as I have seen here.

Back to the topic - to further clarify my post one will find differences of opinion, sometimes significantly, amongst the Russian Greek Catholics regarding Nicholas II. One has to admit he took a much softer tone after the 1905 Revolution; only God knows if this was in his heart or in response to political pressure. Before this he seemingly did not attempt to curtail suppression not only of the Greek Catholics but other particular Orthodox Churches such as the Ukrainian Orthodox and the Georgians.
FDRLB
 
The conversation on Pope John Paul II will now cease. Please return to the original topic of the thread.

Participants are strongly reminded that charity is essential to our discussions here.

If you wish to review the subject, please see Charity for specifics, or CAF rules for an overview, both of which are located in the Rules of the Road sub-forum.
 
. The Romanov family are considered Holy/Saints. They upheld Christianity in Russia. They were practicing Christians, not just Christians in name. The whole story is rather sad. Luckily they did find most of the their bodies in the 1990’s and they are buried at Christ the Saviour Cathedral with the rest of the theocratic leaders of Russia.

Thank you for the kind words Diak.

Perhaps, Diak, Saint Nikolai’s dealings with the UGGC were exacerbated by the fact that there was no separation of Church in State. So in that effect for us to see a state dealing so directly with a church is foreign? I am glad to hear he did soften his tone after 1905. I am tending to lean to the political side of things for the treatment of the UGCC versus him doing it for a religious reason. Where can I read more about this? Now you have my interest meter pegged 🙂
 
It should have read; church and state, not church in state!!
Francisco, you make broad sweeping accusations against St. Nikolai, where are you getting this information from? Just curious, many of us like to read and any books you have to suggest would be appreciated.
 
Diak,

Please help me to understand. I honestly don’t know why we cannot be critical of anything JPII did without being accused of “trashing” him. Do you see the difference? What, to you, would be a reasonable and respectful way of questioning the wisdom of some of the actions of this holy Pontiff? I have striven to do just that in a respectful tone. Does the fact that a person did a great amount of good in his life exempt him and his actions from ever being questioned or criticized?

Treating people like uncharitable idiots and pariahs because they dare to question a Pope’s actions would be, I think, a sort of intellectual terrorism.
 
mgy100 said:
It should have read; church and state, not church in state!!
Francisco, you make broad sweeping accusations against St. Nikolai, where are you getting this information from? Just curious, many of us like to read and any books you have to suggest would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
There is a well done and thorough treatment in a book called…
Rasputin and the Fall of the Romanovs by Colin wilson, out out by Citadel Press, 1964
But any objective Biography on Nicholas II will betray his weakness.
Im not saying he was a bad man(I think he was sincerely religious) just that he was not an effective Csar.
 
I knew the JPII parade would come marching in within a matter of seconds.
Click to expand...
Of course not everything that JPII did should necessarily be endorsed. Unless you’d like half-naked women parading bowls of censers up and down the aisle during Mass or kissing certain texts…
Click to expand...
This is far beyond “disagreement” and a pointed personal invective against a Pope that has been proposed for beatification. If this is a “respectful tone” I would not want to hear disrepectful. Your statements need no response but speak for themselves.

I apologize in advance to the Moderator; I will note that Alexios continued to bring up the issue of our late Holy Father even after the admonition of the Moderator and I felt it necessary to respond.
FDRLB
 
Well, Diak, you didn’t answer even one of my numerous questions in my last post, so I consider the matter closed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top