Standing during Eucharistic Prayer prefered in GIRM?

[Duffy]

Hello,
I have a troubling question about standing during the Eucharistic Prayer. I’ve read the many previous threads about kneeling vs. standing, but there’s a possible new wrinkle I want to figure out before I go in and talk to my liturgy director. Sorry for the length, but I want to quote some problematic passages from our parish bulletin so you can help me understand something.

Our parish is renovating, so we currently have folding chairs set up on a bare concrete floor, with no physical room for kneeling. Fair enough, we can’t kneel, and the GIRM covers that pretty clearly. But in last Sunday’s bulletin, our liturgy director took it a step further and indicated that according to the GIRM, standing is the preferred posture even during the Eucharistic Prayer.

He quotes (selectively?) from GIRM section #43, which begins “The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant…” Now in every version of the GIRM I can find, that first paragraph concludes with “…except at the places indicated below.” Following is a paragraph indicating when one should sit, and this third paragraph: “In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.”

That seems very clear to me. A paragraph about standing, one about sitting, a third about kneeling (in the U.S.). In our bulletin, though, the “standing” paragraph quoted by the liturgy director omits the “…except at the places indicated below” and concludes with the paragraph about sitting. That of course completely changes the meaning of the entire section 43 to indicate that one should remain standing from the invitation to the end of Mass. The bulletin goes on: “The U.S. Council of Bishops released an addendum to this rubric, which states that the assembly may kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer and the Communion procession since this has been the tradition in the United States. These two documents * taken together teach us that either standing or kneeling can be an appropriate posture during the Eucharistic Prayer and the Communion procession.”

Can anyone make sense out of this? I’ll certainly talk to the director, but I want to be as knowledgeable as I can. Is there a version of the GIRM that omits the paragraph about kneeling? Can anyone point me to the addendum he might be referring to? Note that the director isn’t claiming that the pastor or even our Bishop of San Diego is changing things, which I know wouldn’t be licit, but claiming a universal preference for standing during the Eucharistic Prayer except in the U.S., where one MAY kneel.

I’m not looking for trouble, I want to assume the best and be charitable, but at the moment this looks pretty bad to me.

Thank you,
Duffy Tweedy*

 

[tee_eff_em]

Duffy:

Can anyone make sense out of this? I’ll certainly talk to the director, but I want to be as knowledgeable as I can. Is there a version of the GIRM that omits the paragraph about kneeling? Can anyone point me to the addendum he might be referring to?

Perhaps you could point the director to the USCCB’s own website, Committee on the Liturgy, Q&A on the Mass, and from there to Posture During the Eucharistic Prayer, which is the missing text from GIRM number 43.

As I understand things, this is a US adaptation to allow for more kneeling than is called for by the original document (my Latin is too untrustworthy to provide a quick translation, but the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani certainly mentions “*Genuflectant * …with the appropriate exemptions for ease et cetera…] ad consecrationem”, which is not during the entire Eucharistic Prayer, but neither is it a complete absence of kneeling). Even so, it does seem meant to be the norm in the US.

tee

 

[Voice_Of_Reason]

This is from Bishop Wenski of Orlando;

“3. The faithful kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer from the end of the Sanctus to the end of the Great Amen at the conclusion of the Doxology. They also kneel after the Agnes Dei until the communion procession begins.”

Dated Nov. 21, 2004

 

[Detroit_Sue]

Duffy:

But in last Sunday’s bulletin, our liturgy director took it a step further and indicated that according to the GIRM, standing is the preferred posture even during the Eucharistic Prayer.

I’ve learned never to accept anything a liturgist insists is right. And you should point out the entire context in the GIRM to him - let him know you have his number.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Your liturgist is flat out wrong. It’s true that the only hard and fast requirement for kneeling is during the consecration. American particular law, however, is spelled out clearly in black and white and says that we kneel from the Sanctus to the Great Amen. No ambiguity, no nothing. From the way this guy presented the issue, I’d have a hard time believing he was attempting to make an honest rendition of the GIRM.

 

[Duffy]

Andreas Hofer:

Your liturgist is flat out wrong. It’s true that the only hard and fast requirement for kneeling is during the consecration. American particular law, however, is spelled out clearly in black and white and says that we kneel from the Sanctus to the Great Amen. No ambiguity, no nothing. From the way this guy presented the issue, I’d have a hard time believing he was attempting to make an honest rendition of the GIRM.

That certainly seems to be the case. So what ought I to do? We cannot kneel now due to the renovation, so I could ignore this and wait to see what happens when the construction is over. I really don’t like what appears to be deliberate misinformation, especially from our “liturgy director”, but don’t want to overreact. Advice?
–Duffy Tweedy

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I think it’s definitely best to confront the situation during the renovation so that when people have a chance to kneel again there is no confusion. A good tactic might be to confront the liturgist nicely, GIRM in hand, and say that you’re confused because your reading of the GIRM is different from what he presented. Then ask him to explain to you out of the text (the full text, now) why his is right. Not confrontational, but as someone seeking clarification.

 

[KennySe]

I like Andreas’ advice to seek clarification.

And if he doesn’t see his error, then you ask the Bishop to clear this up, by showing the GIRM.

---

While visiting family in New Orleans, I went to Mass. Everyone stood during the Communion reception and afterward they remained standing until all had received, then they sat collectively.

I received the Blessed Sacrament, returned to my pew and knelt immediately, even as I knew those locals around me would notice me. But, I was kneeling toward my King.

 

[misericordie]

Duffy:

Hello,
I have a troubling question about standing during the Eucharistic Prayer. I’ve read the many previous threads about kneeling vs. standing, but there’s a possible new wrinkle I want to figure out before I go in and talk to my liturgy director. Sorry for the length, but I want to quote some problematic passages from our parish bulletin so you can help me understand something.

Our parish is renovating, so we currently have folding chairs set up on a bare concrete floor, with no physical room for kneeling. Fair enough, we can’t kneel, and the GIRM covers that pretty clearly. But in last Sunday’s bulletin, our liturgy director took it a step further and indicated that according to the GIRM, standing is the preferred posture even during the Eucharistic Prayer.

He quotes (selectively?) from GIRM section #43, which begins “The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant…” Now in every version of the GIRM I can find, that first paragraph concludes with “…except at the places indicated below.” Following is a paragraph indicating when one should sit, and this third paragraph: “In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.”

That seems very clear to me. A paragraph about standing, one about sitting, a third about kneeling (in the U.S.). In our bulletin, though, the “standing” paragraph quoted by the liturgy director omits the “…except at the places indicated below” and concludes with the paragraph about sitting. That of course completely changes the meaning of the entire section 43 to indicate that one should remain standing from the invitation to the end of Mass. The bulletin goes on: “The U.S. Council of Bishops released an addendum to this rubric, which states that the assembly may kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer and the Communion procession since this has been the tradition in the United States. These two documents * taken together teach us that either standing or kneeling can be an appropriate posture during the Eucharistic Prayer and the Communion procession.”

Can anyone make sense out of this? I’ll certainly talk to the director, but I want to be as knowledgeable as I can. Is there a version of the GIRM that omits the paragraph about kneeling? Can anyone point me to the addendum he might be referring to? Note that the director isn’t claiming that the pastor or even our Bishop of San Diego is changing things, which I know wouldn’t be licit, but claiming a universal preference for standing during the Eucharistic Prayer except in the U.S., where one MAY kneel.

I’m not looking for trouble, I want to assume the best and be charitable, but at the moment this looks pretty bad to me.

Thank you,
Duffy Tweedy* They love to dance around issues: The liberals.smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_138.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_122.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_120.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_123v.gif

 

[Duffy]

Well, I talked to the liturgist after Mass this evening. Nicely, saying I was confused as to why the GIRM #43 he quoted differed from the one I had seen. He asked if perhaps I had the old one. No, says I, taking out the printout from the US Bishops page showing that section.

Ah ha, says he, the paragraph on kneeling “In the dioceses of the United States, they should kneel…”], isn’t a part of the GIRM! That paragraph is an addendum, not included in the GIRM used by other nations. Therefore, it’s apparently OK to just ignore that, on a case-by-case basis. He said that some bishops have chosen to have their flock stand, including Mahoney of Los Angeles. There may even be a case, he said, that since Mahoney has said standing is the norm, we in San Diego ought to stand as well, since by some lights we are under his authority, Los Angeles being an archdiocese. He did say that when the pews go back in, there will be kneelers and we will be kneeling again, so it should be a moot point.

So, what to make of this? It was better than a bald “I know better than the GIRM” answer. Is there any stretch of validity that could make it accurate to say that the kneeling paragraph isn’t part of the GIRM? It still seems pretty simple to me. The U.S. version of the GIRM has that paragraph in it, it is binding in the U.S., whatever other nations may do or not do. But may an individual Bishop dispense with it?

I had not heard that about Archbishop Mahoney asking his diocese to stand. I have seen some documents where the bishops themselves were debating whether an individual bishop could choose which norm to follow, the U.S. or the non-U.S. I’ve also seen Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, quoted as saying that the kneeling paragraph is explicitly affirmed “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.”

–Duffy

KennySe:

I like Andreas’ advice to seek clarification.

And if he doesn’t see his error, then you ask the Bishop to clear this up, by showing the GIRM.

---

While visiting family in New Orleans, I went to Mass. Everyone stood during the Communion reception and afterward they remained standing until all had received, then they sat collectively.

I received the Blessed Sacrament, returned to my pew and knelt immediately, even as I knew those locals around me would notice me. But, I was kneeling toward my King.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Your liturgy director seems to have an agenda. While it is certainly true that the addendum for the United States does not apply to other countries, it is equally true that it applies universally across the United States as particular law. Thus, it cannot be ignored with the cavalier attitude that seems to be demonstrated by the liturgist.

Bishops do have the right to regulate the liturgy within their diocese, as long as what they change is within the scope that is permitted them. I doubt, however, that your liturgist is a bishop and, therefore, he does not have the authority to change anything that the Church has given us.

Deacon Ed

 

[Franciscum]

Duffy:

Well, I talked to the liturgist after Mass this evening. Nicely, saying I was confused as to why the GIRM #43 he quoted differed from the one I had seen. He asked if perhaps I had the old one. No, says I, taking out the printout from the US Bishops page showing that section.

Ah ha, says he, the paragraph on kneeling “In the dioceses of the United States, they should kneel…”], isn’t a part of the GIRM! That paragraph is an addendum, not included in the GIRM used by other nations. Therefore, it’s apparently OK to just ignore that, on a case-by-case basis. He said that some bishops have chosen to have their flock stand, including Mahoney of Los Angeles. There may even be a case, he said, that since Mahoney has said standing is the norm, we in San Diego ought to stand as well, since by some lights we are under his authority, Los Angeles being an archdiocese. He did say that when the pews go back in, there will be kneelers and we will be kneeling again, so it should be a moot point.

So, what to make of this? It was better than a bald “I know better than the GIRM” answer. Is there any stretch of validity that could make it accurate to say that the kneeling paragraph isn’t part of the GIRM? It still seems pretty simple to me. The U.S. version of the GIRM has that paragraph in it, it is binding in the U.S., whatever other nations may do or not do. But may an individual Bishop dispense with it?

I had not heard that about Archbishop Mahoney asking his diocese to stand. I have seen some documents where the bishops themselves were debating whether an individual bishop could choose which norm to follow, the U.S. or the non-U.S. I’ve also seen Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, quoted as saying that the kneeling paragraph is explicitly affirmed “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.”

–Duffy

Cardinal Mahony has not directed the faithful in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles to stand through the Eucharistic Prayer.

Your liturgy director may indeed have an agenda, but I’m going to guess that something altogether different is making him act the way he is.

And that is, that he’s *absolutely incompetent. *I have met a great many “liturgists” or “liturgical coordinators” over the past few years that appeared to have real rancid agendas at first. A closer look however showed that acted as though their brains were dead.

They lacked the baseline intellectual and educational requirements to carry out there ministries. I see this on a regular basis at my parish – people walking around in a cloud without a clue about what is going on…

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Duffy:

Ah ha, says he, the paragraph on kneeling “In the dioceses of the United States, they should kneel…”], isn’t a part of the GIRM! That paragraph is an addendum, not included in the GIRM used by other nations. Therefore, it’s apparently OK to just ignore that, on a case-by-case basis. He said that some bishops have chosen to have their flock stand, including Mahoney of Los Angeles. There may even be a case, he said, that since Mahoney has said standing is the norm, we in San Diego ought to stand as well, since by some lights we are under his authority, Los Angeles being an archdiocese. He did say that when the pews go back in, there will be kneelers and we will be kneeling again, so it should be a moot point.

He is correct It’s not part of the GIRM if you are not in the United States and should be ignored if you are not in the US. However last time I looked San Diego had not yet moved into Mexico. Some Bishops are defient of Rome and their brother Bishops in the USCC, that is true. Standing is not the norm in the United States as that specific paragraph states. Care should be taken that this time of renovation does not condition the faithful to standing.

 

[Livnlove55]

Franciscum:

Cardinal Mahony has not directed the faithful in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles to stand through the Eucharistic Prayer.

I’m sure glad you said that! I am an RCIA candidate who has only been attending Mass since last August but the people in my parish have always kneeled from the Sanctus to the Great Amen and I haven’t heard anything about the Cardinal changing that.

Assuming it is true that he hasn’t, then it does seem likely that your liturgy director doesn’t have his facts straight. I would ask him where he got his information on this supposed change.
In His love,
Rhonda

 

[Duffy]

Franciscum:

Cardinal Mahony has not directed the faithful in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles to stand through the Eucharistic Prayer.
…

Huh, this is one of the facts I thought the liturgist had right! Cardinal Mahony published a letter on October 24, 2003, titled “Deepening the Spirit of Renewal” that had several controversial liturgical directions. The paragraph in question states, “In the Archdiocese of Los Angeles the faithful stand from the Our Father, the beginning of the Communion Rite, until all have received Communion. They may sit or kneel during the time of sacred silence after all have received [see 43].” That seem pretty blunt, and this as well as the other directions had a timetable: “Study and work with the GIRM is to begin in the Archdiocese on the First Sunday of Advent 2003, with the aim of having it fruitfully implemented by the first Sunday of Lent 2004.” This was an open letter in the archdiocese’s newsletter, The Tidings, and is available at the-tidings.com/2003/1024/girm.htm

 

[Duffy]

Franciscum:

Your liturgy director may indeed have an agenda, but I’m going to guess that something altogether different is making him act the way he is.

And that is, that he’s *absolutely incompetent. *I have met a great many “liturgists” or “liturgical coordinators” over the past few years that appeared to have real rancid agendas at first. A closer look however showed that acted as though their brains were dead.

They lacked the baseline intellectual and educational requirements to carry out there ministries. I see this on a regular basis at my parish – people walking around in a cloud without a clue about what is going on…

Then there are those who apparently have the intellectual and educational goods, or are in the process of acquiring them, but the process leads them in the wrong direction. You guessed it, this fellow is a grad student in theology, at the University of San Diego…
–Duffy

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Duffy:

Huh, this is one of the facts I thought the liturgist had right! Cardinal Mahony published a letter on October 24, 2003, titled “Deepening the Spirit of Renewal” that had several controversial liturgical directions. The paragraph in question states, “In the Archdiocese of Los Angeles the faithful stand from the Our Father, the beginning of the Communion Rite, until all have received Communion. They may sit or kneel during the time of sacred silence after all have received [see 43].” That seem pretty blunt, and this as well as the other directions had a timetable: “Study and work with the GIRM is to begin in the Archdiocese on the First Sunday of Advent 2003, with the aim of having it fruitfully implemented by the first Sunday of Lent 2004.” This was an open letter in the archdiocese’s newsletter, The Tidings, and is available at the-tidings.com/2003/1024/girm.htm

Yes, that is correct. Of course, the Lord’s Prayer is *after *the Eucharistic Prayer. It follows the Great Amen at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer.

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

In the Early years of the church, when Mass was held in private homes, I’m sure that they stood around the table and were all standing very close to the celebrant as there were no sound systems. It’s sad to see such emotion over standing (Which I agree should be kneeling.) There are religious orders in the U.S. that stand during the Eucharistic Prayer. There are places that Mass is said in halls and school rooms, because they have no church. In these places it is impossible to stand. When an important person such as the president of a country enters the room, all stand in respect. Standing has signified respect for some time. The point is that while we discuss standing or kneeling, we are losing people due to our apathy toward our fellow Catholics. The coldness of some churches drives them to the Protestants. Reach out today and every day and let others see the love that brought such attention to the first Christians. The love that they (The first Christians) willingly gave up their lives for.

May God bless you,
Deacon Tony SFO

 

[Duffy]

Deacon Ed:

Yes, that is correct. Of course, the Lord’s Prayer is *after *the Eucharistic Prayer. It follows the Great Amen at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer.

Deacon Ed

OK, that’s embarrassing. It’ll teach me to stay up past my bedtime. You’re right of course about the order of Mass, and that’s one more thing our liturgist seems to have stretched to make his point about standing being equally valid, even during the Eucharistic Prayer. However Mahony’s statement that “in this archdiocese, the faithful stand from the Our Father until all have received Communion.” is still out of step with the GIRM, though, right? Since the Our Father is before the Agnus Dei when Section 43 of the GIRM says we should be kneeling? Or am I still missing it? A lot of folks seem to be upset at Mahony for this. See jeaf.com/dissent/letter-23.htm and adoremus.org for example.
–Duffy

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Duffy,

Let’s look at paragraph 43 of the GIRM:

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the *Alleluia *chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, *Orate, fraters *(Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the *Sanctus *until after the *Amen *of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the *Agnus Dei *unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

Note the the posture following the Agnus Dei is up to the local bishop. In the United States, most (but certainly not all) bishops have decided to stand until the communicant returns to his or her place. The individual may then kneel or sit.

Deacon Ed