State of The Dead

[Toten]

I am reading a Seventh Day Adventist Book and the chapter I am on deals with the State of The Dead. It is very enlightening. I would like to get the Catholic Position on “Soul Sleep” and the Communion of and Intersession of the Saints? Please, as much scripture as possable (in relavence to the subject).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I am reading a Seventh Day Adventist Book and the chapter I am on deals with the State of The Dead. It is very enlightening. I would like to get the Catholic Position on “Soul Sleep” and the Communion of and Intersession of the Saints? Please, as much scripture as possable (in relavence to the subject).

“And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.” Mathew 17:1-3

Clearly, Moses and Elias, were not in what is called Soul Sleep, but living.

" Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Mathew 11:11.

Jesus speaks of those in heaven.

“And one of those robbers who were hanged blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing; thou art under the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly: for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this man hath done no evil.
And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise .” Luke 23:39-43

Here Jesus is saying that when we die,(those who have repented) go to heaven.

Hope this helps!

Jim

 

[FCEGM]

I am reading a Seventh Day Adventist Book and the chapter I am on deals with the State of The Dead. It is very enlightening. I would like to get the Catholic Position on “Soul Sleep” and the Communion of and Intersession of the Saints? Please, as much scripture as possable (in relavence to the subject).

This belief (also found with the Jehovah’s Witnesses) is addressed in these articles that I hope you’ll find helpful:

bringyou.to/apologetics/num10.htm

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109prot.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9504clas.asp

On the Communion and Intercession of the Saints:

catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312frs.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9011fea2.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0005fea1.asp

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Toten,

Jesus, before His death and ressurection, discusses the ressurection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the Sadducees. Jesus says that they are not dead waiting to rise, but alive in heaven. Jesus tells us to never underestimate the Power of God. As a previous poster also indicated, Moses and Elisha also came down to speak with Jesus before his death and ressurection.

God is spiritual and exists outside of physical time which He created. God can look at infinite physical time past to infinite physical time future as a human looks at a three inch piece of yarn. God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time. This is how thousands or tens of thousands of years ago God created into existance a universe with infinite past and infinite future physical time, at the time of Adam.

People rising from the dead, ressurect, through the death of Jesus, into spiritual life outside of physical time. The spiritual realm is not under the restrictions of physical time.

Please visit Creation
NAB MAR 12:18

Then some **Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection **came to him with a question …\…12:24 Jesus said: “You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob’? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken.” **NAB LUK 20:37 **

Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

 

[MarysRoses]

I am reading a Seventh Day Adventist Book and the chapter I am on deals with the State of The Dead. It is very enlightening. I would like to get the Catholic Position on “Soul Sleep” and the Communion of and Intersession of the Saints? Please, as much scripture as possable (in relavence to the subject).

Adventists believe the dead are unconscious, that we do not have an immortal soul, that eternal life is only for the righteous, and we will not be given that gift until the resurrection.

They will dismiss all scriptural evidence to the contrary with the following explanations:

1. In the case of the transfiguration, they will point out that Elijah and Moses were taken to heaven before dying.
2. In the case of parables such as they Rich Man and Lazarus, they will dismiss it as “just a story” not meant to teach on the state of the dead.
3. Any scriptural reference to death as ‘sleep’ must be interpreted very literally… Any scriptural reference to death as being ‘at home with the Lord’ or similar, must be interpreted as referring not to state of that person in death but to the resurrection yet to come.

Those positions, and any others I’ve overlooked can be debated endlessly. Depending on which verses are interpreted symbolically or literally, you can end up with totally different conclusions.

A very interesting and thoughtful look at what the New Testament has to say about the state of the dead, written by a former SDA minister who certainly understands the Adventist position and chooses to question it, is linked here:

ratzlaf.com/Dale%202%20Cor.pdf

There is an Old Testament passage, however worth looking at very closely, because it presents an insurmountable difficulty for Adventist viewpoints taken as it is written. Ellen G. White explicitly contradicts the bible in her writings about it, and Adventists in general contradict the plain words of the bible in explaining it. To do otherwise would compromise their doctrinal position.

I Samuel, Chapter 28

13
But the king said to her, “Have no fear. What do you see?” The woman answered Saul, “I see a preternatural being rising from the earth.”
14
“What does he look like?” asked Saul. And she replied, “It is an old man who is rising, clothed in a mantle.” Saul knew that it was Samuel, and so he bowed face to the ground in homage.
15
Samuel then said to Saul, “Why do you disturb me by conjuring me up?” Saul replied: “I am in great straits, for the Philistines are waging war against me and God has abandoned me. Since he no longer answers me through prophets or in dreams, I have called you to tell me what I should do.”
16
To this Samuel said: "But why do you ask me, if the LORD has abandoned you and is with your neighbor?
17
The LORD has done to you what he foretold through me: he has torn the kingdom from your grasp and has given it to your neighbor David.
18
“Because you disobeyed the LORD’S directive and would not carry out his fierce anger against Amalek, the LORD has done this to you today.
19
Moreover, the LORD will deliver Israel, and you as well, into the clutches of the Philistines. By tomorrow you and your sons will be with me, and the LORD will have delivered the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”
20
Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, for he was badly shaken by Samuel’s message. Moreover, he had no bodily strength left, since he had eaten nothing all that day and night.
21
Then the woman came to Saul, and seeing that he was quite terror-stricken, said to him: "Remember, your maidservant obeyed you: I took my life in my hands and fulfilled the request you made of me.

Ellen G. White does not hesitate to identify Samuel in these verses as an impostor, a demonic being or deceptive spirit posing as Samuel to deceive Saul.

Adventists, even those who no longer see EG White as inspired, also take this position on the passage.

But read it closely. The bible identifies the spirit as Samuel. "Samuel said… " “Samuel then said…” “… shaken by Samuel’s message…” Not one verse identifies an imposter.
There is nothing in the verses to suggest it is other than the prophet himself. Samuel, coming to Saul from the dead, even gives a true prophecy and Saul recognizes it as such.

Adventist state that this spirit is not Samuel, but a deceptive spirit. They will quickly flip to other verses that seem to support their views as evidence this chapter cannot mean what it plainly says.

The verses themselves clearly identify the spirit as Samuel, and present no information that would indicate that it is only a deceptive spirit impersonating the prophet. It would seem reasonable that if it were not actually the prophet Samuel, the text would say as much.

MarysRoses

 

[Todd_Easton]

1. In the case of the transfiguration, they will point out that Elijah and Moses were taken to heaven before dying.

Curious. Although Scripture supports the notion that Elijah was taken to heaven before dying (2 Kings 2:11), Scripture is rather explicit about Moses’ death and burial in Deuteronomy 34:5-7 and Joshua 1:1-2.

 

[Tom]

I am reading a Seventh Day Adventist Book and the chapter I am on deals with the State of The Dead. It is very enlightening. I would like to get the Catholic Position on “Soul Sleep” and the Communion of and Intersession of the Saints? Please, as much scripture as possable (in relavence to the subject).

Interesting screen name for this subject. Was that purposeful?

 

[praise_Him]

Curious. Although Scripture supports the notion that Elijah was taken to heaven before dying (2 Kings 2:11), Scripture is rather explicit about Moses’ death and burial in Deuteronomy 34:5-7 and Joshua 1:1-2.

Scripture also tells us that Moses was resurrected
“Jud 1:9 When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee.”
The doctrine that the dead do not sleep really surprises me because it is so plain from scripture that they DO sleep even Christ taught this as we will see.
"Job 14:12 So man when he is fallen asleep shall not rise again; till the heavens be broken, he shall not awake, nor rise up out of his sleep. "
"1Th 4:16 (4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord. "
As we can see Job agrees with Paul that the dead sleep until the second coming.
“Joh 5:28 Wonder not at this: for the hour cometh wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God.
Joh 5:29 And they that have done good things shall come forth unto the resurrection of life: but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.”

" Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun."

“Psa 146:4 His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish.”

Note that our thoughts perish when we die.
What exactly is a soul?
"Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. "
"Job 27:3 As long as breath remaineth in me, and the spirit of God in my nostrils, "
Here we see soul is a combination of mass and the breath or spirit that God gave us.
can a soul die?
“Eze 18:4 Behold all souls are mine: as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.”
"Joh 11:11 These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 But Jesus spoke of his death: and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead. "

Here Christ taught explicitly that death was sleep.
"Mat 9:24 He said: Give place, for the girl is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. "

“Mar 5:39 And going in, he saith to them Why make you this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Mar 5:40 And they laughed him to scorn…”

“Luk 8:52 And all wept and mourned for her. But he said: Weep not. The maid is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 But he taking her by the hand, cried out, saying: Maid, arise.
Luk 8:55 And her spirit returned: and she arose immediately. And he bid them give her to eat.”
Notice her spirit or breath as we have seen returned to her when Christ resurrected her. A common misconception is attatched to the word spirit, spirit is nothing more than a blast of air. In hebrew the word for spirit is ruach which means literally wind,blast,breath. In greek it comes from the word pneuma from which the english word pneumatic is taken. If we look up the word spirit in Luke 8:55 we see that the word pneuma is used in the greek. the definition for pneuma is a current of air, breath, blast or breeze.
Truth sets us free from fear of death or our future if we abide in Christ!
“Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free.”
Brothers and sisters I want to follow Christ’s teachings how about you? God bless all! quotes from DR 1899

 

[praise_Him]

marysroses wrote
"Adventist state that this spirit is not Samuel, but a deceptive spirit. "

Seventh day adventists aren’t alone in the belief that deceptive spirits are responsible for contact with deceased people.

"“There is a strong inclination among Catholics who feel constrained to admit the genuineness of spirit-messages to assert that these are produced by the agency of the devil; that the message does not come from any departed friend, but from an evil spirit personating him. We know that Satan is capable of transforming himself into “an angel of light,” and he is presumably capable of transforming himself into the likeness of my Uncle John, of mimicking his voice and of reproducing his handwriting. If it be objected that the message contains high and lofty and even Christian sentiments, it may be replied that the evil spirit is deliberately adopting this role in order to deceive us and lead us on so as to ruin our souls.” - Donald Hole, Spiritualism and the Church 1929, pp. 65-67. "

As we can see in the previous post Christ explicitly taught that death is nothing more than sleep. To try and use 1 Sam. 28 or any of Paul’s writings or any scripture for that matter to prove that souls are in heaven is directly in opposition to what we see the rest of scripture and Christ Himself teaching. Taking one or two verses here and there and putting our own doctrine to them while ignoring overwhelming evidence to the contrary is dangerous ground indeed.

“2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.”

Satan first introduced the doctrine of immortality of a sinful soul in the Garden of Eden.

"Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: "

As can be seen from the above post death being a sleep is not “SDA” or “Jehovah’s Witness” it is scriptural doctrine as it was also our Lord’s doctrine. We really need to be careful not to misconstrue the Holy Scripture! Our salvation as well as that of others is at stake! God bless!