Stay or Leave?

[David_Zampino]

It appears to me that the OP’s mind is already made up.

As a former Episcopalian, I’ll speculate that it’s a neat trick to be able to simultaneously accept the Westminster Confession and the 39 Articles of Religion!

I’ll pray for the OP – that’s about all any of us can do.

 

[Catholicdeacon]

The Westminster Confession and the 39 Articles? Hmmmm.

Not even many protestants believe in those any more.

I wonder how Kotek “came across” those?

Of course the Westminster Confession states that God decreed at the beginning of time that billions of people, through no fault of their own, are going to be tossed into endless torment in hell, with no hope of redemption - and there’s nothing whatsoever they can do about it.

I wonder what makes that doctrine so attractive? What makes it more attractive than the Catholic teaching of repentance and free forgiveness?

Curious.

Not only that… Do Kotek really believe that the Pope IS the anti-Christ? If he does then I question all the history studies he has done, or his understanding on the book of Revelation.

From the W.Confession CHAPTER XXV. - Of the Church

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.

Viva Cristo Rey!!

CatholicDeacon

 

[kotek]

Not only that… Do Kotek really believe that the Pope IS the anti-Christ? If he does then I question all the history studies he has done, or his understanding on the book of Revelation.

Viva Cristo Rey!!

CatholicDeacon

I did not say I agree with the ENTIRE Westminster Confession JUST Articles 10-18, which deals with Soteriology, and I agree completely with the 39 Articles of Religion of the Anglicans. I do not believe that the Pope is the “Anti-Christ”.

 

[kotek]

What makes you think that it was the Holy Spirit’s guidance and not someone else’s intelligent influence that caused you to “stumble across” things that would lead you away from the Church? - especially if your “cannot accept” is actually a “will not accept”.

Please get the facts straight, when I started I was hoping that my doubts and questions would be answered in FAVOUR of the Catholic position. It was not a matter of “will not accept”. I cannot accept what the Church teaches on those Dogmas now BECAUSE of my study and research.

 

[VociMike]

Please get the facts straight, when I started I was hoping that my doubts and questions would be answered in FAVOUR of the Catholic position. It was not a matter of “will not accept”. I cannot accept what the Church teaches on those Dogmas now BECAUSE of my study and research.

“Study and research” are human endeavors. They are things of the flesh. Things of the flesh cannot reveal divine truths, as Jesus told us more than once.

And I still want to know how you justify using the New Testament if you reject the Catholic Church. Yes, I know you’re not the first to do that.

 

[ricko]

Possible Troll Alert!!

I checked out some of kotek previous posts as suggested by someone and found these posted in JUNE:

I left the Roman Catholic Church after doing a lot of historical research, reading and studying the early Church, the Early Church Fathers, the Bible, Theology and a lot of Prayer to the Holy Spirit to show me the truth NO MATTER where it led, if anything I had a bias that the Roman Catholic Church was right. Nonetheless I was still open to the truth and had what some term “a teachable spirit”. The more I studied and prayed the more I saw that Rome was wrong on so many things. I also noticed that when I read or listened to Roman Catholic Apologists I saw that they constantly quoted the Early Church Fathers out of context, use poor and/or questionable Biblical Hermeneutics to distort what the Bible says and simply twist history to “prove” Rome right no matter what the real facts and truth is. So I am a little upset still sometimes because I was lied to by people who should be teaching the truth but who distort the Bible, History, the Early Church Fathers to prove Rome right at all costs.

I am a member of the Anglican Church in North America and I have been following the events in Texas.

It appears that he has been stringing us along as he is NOT a Catholic deciding to leave the Church or not. He already left some time ago!

 

[Catholicdeacon]

Possible Troll Alert!!

I checked out some of kotek previous posts as suggested by someone and found these posted in JUNE:

I left the Roman Catholic Church after doing a lot of historical research, reading and studying the early Church, the Early Church Fathers, the Bible, Theology and a lot of Prayer to the Holy Spirit to show me the truth NO MATTER where it led, if anything I had a bias that the Roman Catholic Church was right. Nonetheless I was still open to the truth and had what some term “a teachable spirit”. The more I studied and prayed the more I saw that Rome was wrong on so many things. I also noticed that when I read or listened to Roman Catholic Apologists I saw that they constantly quoted the Early Church Fathers out of context, use poor and/or questionable Biblical Hermeneutics to distort what the Bible says and simply twist history to “prove” Rome right no matter what the real facts and truth is. So I am a little upset still sometimes because I was lied to by people who should be teaching the truth but who distort the Bible, History, the Early Church Fathers to prove Rome right at all costs.

I am a member of the Anglican Church in North America and I have been following the events in Texas.

It appears that he has been stringing us along as he is NOT a Catholic deciding to leave the Church or not. He already left some time ago!

Thanks Ricko,

I can belive I fell for it:mad: after all these years, I should know better... Lets see... How does that thing Jesus said about cleaning the dust from your feet goes again????

Viva Cristo Rey!!

CatholicDeacon

 

[VociMike]

Possible Troll Alert!!

I checked out some of kotek previous posts as suggested by someone and found these posted in JUNE:

I left the Roman Catholic Church after doing a lot of historical research, reading and studying the early Church, the Early Church Fathers, the Bible, Theology and a lot of Prayer to the Holy Spirit to show me the truth NO MATTER where it led, if anything I had a bias that the Roman Catholic Church was right. Nonetheless I was still open to the truth and had what some term “a teachable spirit”. The more I studied and prayed the more I saw that Rome was wrong on so many things. I also noticed that when I read or listened to Roman Catholic Apologists I saw that they constantly quoted the Early Church Fathers out of context, use poor and/or questionable Biblical Hermeneutics to distort what the Bible says and simply twist history to “prove” Rome right no matter what the real facts and truth is. So I am a little upset still sometimes because I was lied to by people who should be teaching the truth but who distort the Bible, History, the Early Church Fathers to prove Rome right at all costs.

I am a member of the Anglican Church in North America and I have been following the events in Texas.

It appears that he has been stringing us along as he is NOT a Catholic deciding to leave the Church or not. He already left some time ago!

And yet for every poster there are many more readers, and we should provide answers for them. Besides, maybe the OP is having trouble cutting that last tie, and at some level is still open to our views.

 

[DOShea]

Please get the facts straight, when I started I was hoping that my doubts and questions would be answered in FAVOUR of the Catholic position.

I should point out that anything any Catholic says here to defend the Catholic Dogmas I cannot accept will more than likely not change my mind. I have read extensively from all points of view and have concluded that I simply cannot accept some Catholic Dogmas based on history and the Bible. Sorry, can’t do it. Lest anyone think that I don’t “understand” or “know” what the Catholic Church teaches about these Dogmas, I assure you, I do understand them and cannot accept them based on historical facts and the Bible

Peculiar way to seek answers, saying your mind is made up. It doesn’t seem genuine in light of the other posts.

 

[rwillenborg]

Dang Kotek,
I was about to write this nice touchy-feely rainbows and rose petals post about how I am sure that you have done thorough research, and if your heart isn’t in the church, then it would be a lie to keep the rest of your body there, so I think you should leave the Church, and not even feel badly about it BLAH BLAH BLAH…
But seeing as how you already left the Church four months ago I’m guessing my touchy-feel post would probably be a day late and a dollar short, huh?
Anyway, God bless and I wish you the best in your endeavors.

 

[JRKH]

Please get the facts straight, when I started I was hoping that my doubts and questions would be answered in FAVOUR of the Catholic position. It was not a matter of “will not accept”. I cannot accept what the Church teaches on those Dogmas now BECAUSE of my study and research.

Isn’t it strange that my same, or similar questions led me BACK INTO the Church BECAUSE of my study and research.

I can only say that perhaps God is leading you out of the Catholic Church so that you may see for yourself the chaos that reigns in the Protestant sector.
I for one could never put much stock in the protestant sector after my discovery that those reformers who developed and held to the “Bible Alone” started out by changing the Bible from 72 books to 66 books.
No one has ever been able to give me a good and logical expanation for this. That was strike one.
Strike two was the fact that Protestant groups, each claiming the Bible and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, teach different and conflicting doctrines. If the Holy Spirit is directly leading the NCC churches then there should be “One” reformed Church (or possibly two closely related ones) teaching the same doctrines, and not the many plethora of differing denominations.
Strike Three is just plain History. The Catholic Church through Apostolic succession is tracable to the Apostles. The Bible as we have it today is a result of Church councils and selection. Christ Pomised the Gates of hell would not prevail, Christ promised the Holy Spirit, The Early Church developed the system we have today Priests, Bishops, Pope.

These are the main strikes against Protestantism for me. I don’t need to go into all of the deep issues of doctrine etc when these major flaws exist in the formation of the Protestant view. Do I understand all of the Church techings? Heck no!! Do I fully embrace them all? - again I must say no. Do I accept them? - You bet I do because each time I’ve looked into some teaching or other, the depth and the soundness of reasoning is always there.

A couple of posts have pointed to the “cafeteria Catholic” aspect of the Church and I agree that these exist. Believe it or not The Church is working on this issue over time. One great stride in this area is the publishing of the New Catechism. This was sorely needed and will undoubtedly aid our Parishes to more clearly and unfiormly raise the next generations of Catholics.

Perhaps some of the above will help you kotek to reconsider the “infallibility” of your own view.

Peace
James

 

[kotek]

Possible Troll Alert!!

I checked out some of kotek previous posts as suggested by someone and found these posted in JUNE:

I left the Roman Catholic Church after doing a lot of historical research, reading and studying the early Church, the Early Church Fathers, the Bible, Theology and a lot of Prayer to the Holy Spirit to show me the truth NO MATTER where it led, if anything I had a bias that the Roman Catholic Church was right. Nonetheless I was still open to the truth and had what some term “a teachable spirit”. The more I studied and prayed the more I saw that Rome was wrong on so many things. I also noticed that when I read or listened to Roman Catholic Apologists I saw that they constantly quoted the Early Church Fathers out of context, use poor and/or questionable Biblical Hermeneutics to distort what the Bible says and simply twist history to “prove” Rome right no matter what the real facts and truth is. So I am a little upset still sometimes because I was lied to by people who should be teaching the truth but who distort the Bible, History, the Early Church Fathers to prove Rome right at all costs.

I am a member of the Anglican Church in North America and I have been following the events in Texas.

It appears that he has been stringing us along as he is NOT a Catholic deciding to leave the Church or not. He already left some time ago!

Yes I posted that in June, I have been see sawing and trying to determine the facts, at THAT time I said that, but I later decide to give trying to be Catholic another try, yes I did, if you doubt my veracity, so be it. But that is the fact of thematter. I saw the Parish Priest and we had a discussion about it.

He told me when we spoke that based on his pastoral experience most Catholic have issues with some Catholic Dogmas that they simply cannot accept. He also told me that if all hose Catholics were to leave the Church then most Parishes would be 60-70% empty on Sundays. I tried this whole summer, July and August to give it another shot after I spoke with him. I was hoping that maybe things would just fall into place but they did not, sorry thats the truth. I kept reading stuff to see if I could resolve my questions etc, but I cannot. I AM NOT A TROLL! I guess you can’t just deal with the facts that the catholic Church is and can be wrong.

 

[David_Zampino]

If you are truly joining the Anglican Church of North America – from where you claim to stand theologically today – you will be sadly disappointed. They are far more “catholic” than you are. (Even the “Evangelicals” among the bunch!)

I know many of the Bishops and other members of the clergy personally – and have for years. If you are truly embracing the “Westminster Confession” and also dialoging with the new ACNA – you are either mistaken about what that body stands for – or you are playing games.

These are people I know – and know well. If, indeed, you were in Texas, at the ACNA Conference, demonstrate it! Give names, opinions, credentials.

I know who was there – and I know what was said!

 

[Holly3278]

Stay and try to reconcile your faith to the Catholic Church. By the way, did you know that the only place in the Bible where the phrase “faith alone” appears is here?

(James 2:24 RSV) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Emphasis mine.

 

[ricko]

I have several posts by kotek. It always helps to know who you are dealing with especially as to character. I make no comments as to his posts, you be the judge.

Oct 2, '06,
Let me start by saying that I am not a Roman Catholic and that I have and do receive Communion in a Roman Catholic Parish. I am a conseravative Anglican and do belong to a conservative "continuing…

May 7, '07
I am an Anglican and I am a member of the Reformed Episcopal Church.

Sep 3, '07
I recently returned home to the Catholic Church

Nov 15, '07
As a former Anglican, I just recently "crossed the Tiber

Dec 6, '07
Let me first start by saying that I am a Catholic

Dec 8, '07
I recently “reverted” to the Catholic Church because of, and to be honest It was the Sacraments, ESPECIALLY the Eucharist. Don’t get me wrong, the ONLY issue I still have is “Justification”.

Jan 11, '08,
Last Spring I “reverted” back to the Catholic Church

Jan 31, '08
Lately I have been unsure in a lot of things to the point that after “returning” to the Church last spring I left again after this past Christmas and started going to a Lutheran Church, I read the…

Sep 8, '08
It has been some time since I have posted here. The last time I posted here I was on the balance of whether or not to leave the Church. That being said I choose to stay in the Catholic Church BUT I simply cannot believe some Catholic beliefs

Apr 21, '09
Last Fall I finally decided to come back to the Catholic Church once for all after being away for 20 years (10 of those years were in a conservative “Continuing Anglican Church”, The Reformed…

May 21, '09
I will NEVER agree with Rome’s false pagan derived dogma of Purgatory and Indulgences

May 22, '09
I don’t belong to a “sect”. I belong to the Anglican Church in North America

Jun 18, '09,
I am not AMiA, though they are a part of the new Anglican Province, I belong to the REC (Reformed Episcopal Church).

Jun 19, '09
I can almost say with certainty that I will NEVER return to the Roman Church.

Aug 2, '09
I have decided to return to the Catholic Church

Aug 4, '09
Having been an Evangelical Protestant, then Anglican. (and I was Baptised and confirmed Catholic and grew up Catholic and left the Catholic Church in my college years for the Baptist Church)

Aug 6, '09
Many if not most Catholics are essentially functioning Semi-Pelagians. I notice that not only in web forums but among Catholics at my Parish as well.

 

[Answersplease]

Basing this on another thread about whether to stay in the Catholic Church or leave I thought I would start this thread based on some specifics. I should point out that anything any Catholic says here to defend the Catholic Dogmas I cannot accept will more than likely not change my mind. I have read extensively from all points of view and have concluded that I simply cannot accept some Catholic Dogmas based on history and the Bible. Sorry, can’t do it. Lest anyone think that I don’t “understand” or “know” what the Catholic Church teaches about these Dogmas, I assure you, I do understand them and cannot accept them based on historical facts and the Bible, so without further delay here they are:

1. I cannot accept either Papal Primacy (of absolute authority) or Papal Infallibility
2. Purgatory and Indulgences
3. I reject the Council of Trent and Vatican 1

I wholeheartedly affirm the following:

1. Justification by Faith Alone
2. The Penal Substitution view of the Atonement
3. What the Westminster Confession of Faith says about Salvation, IE Soteriology. and the Anglican 39 Articles of Religion.
4. The Bible as the only Infallible source of authority and that any Tradition to be valid must not contradict the Bible .

So given all this should I leave the Catholic Church or stay?

Accusing the Catholic Church of being wrong and NOT giving reasons as to why, is a bad way to make your case.

You’ve become a like leaf blown by the winds of interpretations from the minds of mortal men.

Do you think you can interpret the Holy Bible without The Holy Spirit?

If The Holy Spirit is guiding your interpretation, what makes you more special than other interpreters that The Holy Spirit should FAVOR YOU and NOT THEM?

If The Holy Spirit guides ALL interpreters, then why do they NOT ALL AGREE? Especially among the Protestants?

Do you think Jesus The Christ left the world a library of books (bible)?

Clearly Jesus The Christ left the world His disciples and The Holy Spirit, not merely a bible that anyone can interpret all by themselves.

Without history, the Bible is just another book, that anyone can twist to their own ends.

Acts 8:30
Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

Acts 8:31
“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

 

[BernadetteM]

The following is what Kotex said on CARM a week ago. I think this really answers the question if he is being honest or not with us on CAF.

“Facts or Why I Can No Longer Be Roman Catholic”

I am having done with the Roman Catholic Church, I can no longer swear allegiance to a Church that has destorted the facts of history and what the Word of God says.
The Roman Catholic Church has lied to me and millions of people about its origins and history. It is a Communion built on fraud, forgery, lies, and political manipulation. I have read numerous books by both Roman Catholic and non-Roman Catholics who are in agreement and who are not afraid to tell the truth and state the facts of history that Rome is not and never was what she claims to be.

Roman Catholic Apologists distort history and the Scriptures to prove Rome right. They use Philosophical Sophistry to counter the historical facts and plain Biblical Witness.

Goodbye Rome.

The posts he/she post on CARM are what he/she really feels and says about the Church. My question is why is he/she wasting posters on CAF time and energy when he/she is no longer a Catholic, if he/she ever was.

There is no honesty or integrity show in his/her posts here. That seems very unchrisian like to me.

When people play these types of games on others I guess they don’t realize that they are accountable to God for the deceit and lies they tell.

I pray Kotex will find some kind of peace someday.

If some of you are not aware of it CARM is a very anti Catholic board and not a place where a Christian would go to discern TRUTH.

I spelled the quote exactly as it was on CARM, as I noticed some mistakes made in the post.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

 

[JRKH]

The following is what Kotex said on CARM a week ago. I think this really answers the question if he is being honest or not with us on CAF.

“Facts or Why I Can No Longer Be Roman Catholic”

I am having done with the Roman Catholic Church, I can no longer swear allegiance to a Church that has destorted the facts of history and what the Word of God says.
The Roman Catholic Church has lied to me and millions of people about its origins and history. It is a Communion built on fraud, forgery, lies, and political manipulation. I have read numerous books by both Roman Catholic and non-Roman Catholics who are in agreement and who are not afraid to tell the truth and state the facts of history that Rome is not and never was what she claims to be.

Roman Catholic Apologists distort history and the Scriptures to prove Rome right. They use Philosophical Sophistry to counter the historical facts and plain Biblical Witness.

Goodbye Rome.

The posts he/she post on CARM are what he/she really feels and says about the Church. My question is why is he/she wasting posters on CAF time and energy when he/she is no longer a Catholic, if he/she ever was.

There is no honesty or integrity show in his/her posts here. That seems very unchrisian like to me.

When people play these types of games on others I guess they don’t realize that they are accountable to God for the deceit and lies they tell.

I pray Kotex will find some kind of peace someday.

If some of you are not aware of it CARM is a very anti Catholic board and not a place where a Christian would go to discern TRUTH.

I spelled the quote exactly as it was on CARM, as I noticed some mistakes made in the post.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Well I will continue to assume an honesty about kotek but based upon what you post above, I have to say that it appears that he is in a very disturbed and vulnerable state right now for while he can make such firm and absolute statements about the church on another website, still he seems to feel some pull yet from Holy Mother Church.
Let us pray that his heart be softened, and his faith increased and that he return to The Church.

Peace
James