Stop Tearing Apart Jesus' Body!

[E.E.N.S]

If “kneeling is better”, why aren’t we kneeling when the Gospel is read?

The Gospel is not the Body and Blood of Our Lord. None-the-less, when we read the words “…He became man…” from the Gospel we do kneel. So if we are to kneel at the mere speaking of these words, we had better kneel when we are receiving Him.

 

[Indyann]

The Gospel is not the Body and Blood of Our Lord. None-the-less, when we read the words “…He became man…” from the Gospel we do kneel. So if we are to kneel at the mere speaking of these words, we had better kneel when we are receiving Him.

My point was to a poster arguing that “kneeling is better”, discounting the fact that Byzantine and Eastern Catholics DO NOT kneel.

So, if “kneeling is better”, what is best?

Perhaps, reclining, as the Apostles did at the last supper?

Some need to climb out of their boxes and view the world with a wider lens.

 

[Layman]

I’ve read that Eastern Catholics do not kneel because of the different connotations of kneeling in the East; slavery, rather than reverence.

It does not have the same connotations in the West. You knelt to your Seigneur, your Lord.

Using Eastern practices as a justification for changing the Latin rite is disingenuous. The changes to the rite post Vat. II have one theme in common; taking the focus away from the Host and the tabernacle. Making it more about Us, rather than Him. We’re all priests now, so take out the altar rails, communion in the hand, let laymen read the epistle, EMHCs etc.

Frankly, I’m bored hearing that St. Dionysus of Antioch allowed liturgical dancing by deaconesses 1400 years ago. That’s no justifcation for drastically altering a rite. How meddlesome to play around with a sacred rite, distressing the faithful, because some rebellious bishops have a degree in litugical archeology, and a thirst for change.

Change, we can believe in? Mass attendance and vocation numbers suggest otherwise.

 

[I_Believe]

If communion in the hand had been introduced in full obedience to Rome (which it was not) and had led to a more profound reverence towards the Eucharist (which it has not) then I could see a legitimate argument for it. The traditions of the East have nothing to do with it. The argument is not whether communion in the hand is intrinsically bad. Obviously it’s not. But it needs to be changed in the Roman Church because the practice has had only negative consequences.

And we have a Pope who agrees

youtube.com/watch?v=A3zHpo3gtN0

 

[mlouise007]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

My point was to a poster arguing that “kneeling is better”, discounting the fact that Byzantine and Eastern Catholics DO NOT kneel.

“On the first day of the week we stand when we pray. The reason is that on the day of Resurrection, by standing at prayer, we remind ourselves of the grace we have received.” (St. Basil the Great)

The prohibition against kneeling for many ECCs is for Sundays, and the season of Pascha through Pentecost; Liturgy at other times can be full of kneeling and prostrations, depending on the occasion, and also on the particular ECC. “…neeling and fasting as both penitential in preparation for the Resurrection of the Lord every Sunday… The ‘fast’ is fulfilled as it resolves itself into ‘feast’…” One has been kneeling and keeping the fast during the week in preparation for the Resurrection of the Lord every Sunday.

(Canon 20 of the First Ecumenical Council, Nicaea, 325) “The twentieth canon of the First Ecumenical Council specifically forbids kneeling, and thus prostrations, on every Sunday (it being the feast of the Resurrection) and on the days of Pentecost, the fifty days between Pascha and Pentecost-Trinity Sunday…Great Feasts are also joyous occasions and thus it it customary not to make prostrations or to kneel down at their celebration…”

I don’t wish to dispute at all your point about the “kneeling is better” contention. The entirety of the Mass, save the homily, is prayer, and in the Roman rite in any form we both stand and kneel when praying. In even the most nontraditional of NO parishes at the beginning of the Good Friday service the priests prostrate, as they do also during ordination. Clearly we have standing as prayer and kneeling and prostration as prayer in both the Roman rite and in Eastern churches depending on the occasion. (In many ECCs and Orthodox churches we do not sit during the liturgy, other than during the homily.) Surely what is best is that we all continue to learn and so continue to grow in our full and active participation in the liturgy in whatever form or rite.

The issue of kneeling in ECCs and Orthodox Liturgy has recently been discussed on a thread in the forum. Like many topics one cannot say there is one way something is done in the East. bpbasilphx #6 mentions both variations for churches of the East compared to the Roman rite, and also variations among different ECCs. For some time I just followed the lead of those around me during the Divine Liturgy without knowing why sometimes we were kneeling/prostrating and sometimes not. Like many other things understanding the intention of this in the Byzantine and Orthodox churches I participate in has greatly enriched how I worship both there and in my Roman rite parish.

 

[Timothysis]

Please explain to me how I am tearing apart Jesus’ body by wanting a return to that which I knew as a child?

I knew many things as a child that are gone in today’s world; that’s just the way things go. Agree with it or not, Western society has made a radical change in the past 40 years.

You keep mentioning how you lost what you once had…St. Agnes has been having the Latin Mass at 9:30am on Sunday since 1983; that’s 26 years. St. Agnes is only a 5 minute drive from the Cathedral. Perhaps you could go there?

 

[brotherhrolf]

I knew many things as a child that are gone in today’s world; that’s just the way things go. Agree with it or not, Western society has made a radical change in the past 40 years.

You keep mentioning how you lost what you once had…St. Agnes has been having the Latin Mass at 9:30am on Sunday since 1983; that’s 26 years. St. Agnes is only a 5 minute drive from the Cathedral. Perhaps you could go there?

St Agnes has a Low Mass which is not the Missa Cantata that I grew up with. We have (in the words of Star Wars) “a fully armed and operational” cathedral choir who would be overjoyed to sing a High Mass or even a Solemn High Mass.

What seems to be forgotten is that BR was a part of the Archdiocese of New Orleans before 1961 and that the norm for the Archdiocese was the Missa Cantata or dialogue Mass. The congregation (believe it or not) chanted everything the congregation does today except in Latin. Every response the congregation makes today, we chanted.

The good Msgr.C. made it quite clear that St. Agnes was a ghetto in his editorial after our good bishop “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. I will be more than happy to exchange PMs with you about this.

I have been a member of the cathedral parish since 1983. My two parishes in New Orleans (before I moved up here to BR) celebrated the Missa Cantata or dialogue Mass for the two main Masses on Sunday. Contrary to popular opinion, some of us did participate in the Mass. Have Missal, will travel. The “little old ladies with their rosaries” were at the Low Masses.

 

[Timothysis]

The good Msgr.C. made it quite clear that St. Agnes was a ghetto in his editorial after our good bishop “acknowledged” the Motu Proprio. I will be more than happy to exchange PMs with you about this.

From what I have seen and heard, our “good bishop” seems to be a very good man. My sister works at Catholic High and when the bishop took over he would not let them celebrate Mass at graduation because it was held in an auditorium and he did not believe that it would be reverent. The staff had to go to great lengths to finally persuade the bishop to allow it. Also, my sister did not care much for him because (according to her) he’s a “by the rules” type.

I don’t know about Msgr.C.'s editorial so I can not comment on that.

Finally, and please don’t take this the wrong way, it sounds like you won’t be happy until things are the way you want them to be. While I can appreciate your feelings, the fact is that life sometimes isn’t that way.