Stumpers

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AJZepp

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Since my question and email were blown off by the powers that be, I figured I’d ask it here instead…

One of the things I like about the approach that Catholic Answers takes is that they at least make some effort to allow those who are anti-Catholic to speak their mind and take their shots at our faith. That got me to thinking…what are some of the talking points of Fundamentalists that are the most difficult for Catholics to defend/answer? What are some of their most ironclad arguments/defenses of their own belief system that can put us in the position of feeling as if we have no compelling response?

As some of you may be able to relate, I was “attacked” by a fundamentalist friend of mine about 20 years ago and it shook me to my core. But that experience was one of the best of my life, as it sent me seeking out answers to the challenges he presented which, in turn, led me to Karl Keating and his writings. This led to a much greater understanding of the basis of our Church’s teachings and has really allowed me to be of service to my Catholic friends who were in the same position as I used to be.

Anyway, I just got to wondering about those areas where apologetics may come up short in providing us a solid footing when engaged with one of our fundamentalist brethren. What are some points they’ve made that have really stumped you guys?
 
If you go to Fundamentalist websites they have long lists of objections they think are non-starters for Catholics. As a convert I used to take most of them at face value, but then I made the big mistake of reading a solid Catholic apologetics book that shook me to my core and started me on the road to the Catholic Church. 😛

In all the time I’ve been Catholic now, about 20+ years, I’ve never come across any challenge by a Fundamentalist that was a true stumper. All I’ve found are some issues about which I didn’t know as much as I would have liked, but that’s not quite the same thing. The fact that there really aren’t any stumpers is why CAF gets people who come, post, get answers they didn’t think possible and then leave, never to return because they weren’t able to knock down the Church’s teachings. They found us Catholics extremely recalcitrant, and unrepentantly so when standing up for our faith. 😉
 
Honestly, I haven’t really encountered and valid “stumpers”. The only thing that generally makes life difficult is the most extreme fantasy based (I call them) allegations, mostly found on websites. These are only difficult because they have no basis in fact and their proponents never even attempt to document a source, (since none exists)

Authentic arguments against our most holy faith are not all that hard to counter since we can produce authentic and authoritative Catholic sources that explain our doctrines and practices.

I too, am a “revert”, and you can find My Testimony on my blog. (Linked in my sig line,)
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
I kinda have one.

It’s when I’m dealing with Jehovah’s witnesses. I have one at work. She would from time to time ask me healthy questions and I’d give her answers…she would look at my answers by looking at her bible. I did not know at the time that their bible has an improper translation (it was translated be 3 witnesses which were improperly educated to do so).

So this made it VERY hard for me to work with her, From what I understand …if she reported back to her group that she met a catholic that had some ability to back up their faith…to leave them alone and Only listen to the elders of the witnesses (she hasn’t came to me again ever since the last talk we had).
 
Thanks for the responses everyone…I think what triggered this was when I was watching two of the older K.Keating debates I came across online. There were one or two times when his opponent (one was a Baptist preacher and the other was from the Iglesia ni Cristo organization) seemed to make a point that was a bit of a zinger, and Karl didn’t seem to address it in his rebuttal. It was probably some nonsense, but I need to go back and re-watch those parts and then research the points they made. The quality was very poor on those videos and I think I missed some of what they said. I believe one point pertained to Peter being seemingly “out-ranked” by another apostle on a directive, which the INC guy seemed to really focus on…but I can’t recall for sure the argument.

Della: Yep, I think all Catholics - and especially those of us who are of the “Cradle” variety - need to read one of those hardcore apologetics books! lol

C.M.: Enjoyed reading your testimony…when you described being challenged on how we worship Mary, that brought back a lot of memories!! One area I seem to always focus on with my Catholic friends who aren’t as well versed in apologetics is the idea of veneration vs. adoration.

M.H.: That’s exactly why I appreciate the Catholic Answers approach…some of these other folks seem to always isolate among themselves and get into a “group think” mode. If a belief doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, what good is it? I may love Mazdas and feel they are the best cars made today, but if I haven’t taken the time to really study what other cars are on the market and learn about their manufacturing, road tests, etc, then how can I really know for sure that Mazdas are the best? I take the same approach with my faith, which is why I enjoy all the engagement and discussion that takes place here. I don’t WANT to be in group think mode like the Jehova Witnesses or whoever else. I want to be able to openly discuss my beliefs and defend them intelligently and confidently. Obviously that doesn’t mean everyone will agree, but I think it says something when one’s church tells them to disengage from their conversation with you and ONLY speak with church elders lol.
 
Well, the lovely thing about the Church is that one can be illiterate and unable to discuss anything and be holy or be a person with all sorts of degrees after your name and be holy. We embrace the mentally impaired as much as the Fulton Sheens. What we are asked to be able to do is to “give a reason for the hope that lies within” us. Some of us do that by the way we live our lives or simply by being alive and others are brilliant apologists of the more intellectual kind. Every one of us is a witness to God’s truths in some way, as God gives us the ability and we are willing to be.
 
Beautifully stated, Della.

Recently I was a resource of sorts for a very good friend of mine whose daughter got caught up in a very small “non-denominational” church. All of a sudden she came home telling her mom how she needed to change her donor status on her driver’s license since being an organ donor was against the Bible, and talking about how she was “saved”. This really threw my friend for a loop, as she is Cuban-American and her family is full of very devout Catholics. But as we often see, as passionate as they were about their faith, they were not really prepared to have it challenged or attacked from within, which is essentially what her daughter was doing under the influence of this new church. But thankfully, due in small part to the resources I shared with my friend such as the Catholic Answers radio program and forums, and in large part due to her petitioning of God to allow her daughter to return “home”, this mini-crisis has been averted. So I completely agree…I’m glad we have such an amazing faith that can serve the needs of so many…and I’m thankful for the tool of apologetics.
 
Well, the lovely thing about the Church is that one can be illiterate and unable to discuss anything and be holy or be a person with all sorts of degrees after your name and be holy. We embrace the mentally impaired as much as the Fulton Sheens. What we are asked to be able to do is to “give a reason for the hope that lies within” us. Some of us do that by the way we live our lives or simply by being alive and others are brilliant apologists of the more intellectual kind. Every one of us is a witness to God’s truths in some way, as God gives us the ability and we are willing to be.
👍 Well said Della!
 
If you go to Fundamentalist websites they have long lists of objections they think are non-starters for Catholics. As a convert I used to take most of them at face value, but then I made the big mistake of reading a solid Catholic apologetics book that shook me to my core and started me on the road to the Catholic Church. 😛

In all the time I’ve been Catholic now, about 20+ years, I’ve never come across any challenge by a Fundamentalist that was a true stumper. All I’ve found are some issues about which I didn’t know as much as I would have liked, but that’s not quite the same thing. The fact that there really aren’t any stumpers is why CAF gets people who come, post, get answers they didn’t think possible and then leave, never to return because they weren’t able to knock down the Church’s teachings. They found us Catholics extremely recalcitrant, and unrepentantly so when standing up for our faith. 😉
Good answer babe.
 
Beautifully stated, Della.

Recently I was a resource of sorts for a very good friend of mine whose daughter got caught up in a very small “non-denominational” church. All of a sudden she came home telling her mom how she needed to change her donor status on her driver’s license since being an organ donor was against the Bible, and talking about how she was “saved”. This really threw my friend for a loop, as she is Cuban-American and her family is full of very devout Catholics. But as we often see, as passionate as they were about their faith, they were not really prepared to have it challenged or attacked from within, which is essentially what her daughter was doing under the influence of this new church. But thankfully, due in small part to the resources I shared with my friend such as the Catholic Answers radio program and forums, and in large part due to her petitioning of God to allow her daughter to return “home”, this mini-crisis has been averted. So I completely agree…I’m glad we have such an amazing faith that can serve the needs of so many…and I’m thankful for the tool of apologetics.
I’m so glad the daughter returned to the Church. She’ll be a stronger Catholic for having had the experience. The thing that I find so strange is how Catholics can be so easily misled by fast talking proselytizers who know how to make a Catholic question their faith while never once does that Catholic stop to ask themselves, “And why should I listen to/believe this?” It tells me that we need good catechesis for our children, as well as making sure they grasp what it means to live their lives for Christ as he has called us to do. A whole generation is slipping away because of ignorance and the allure of “greener pastures”.
 
I’m so glad the daughter returned to the Church. She’ll be a stronger Catholic for having had the experience. The thing that I find so strange is how Catholics can be so easily misled by fast talking proselytizers who know how to make a Catholic question their faith while never once does that Catholic stop to ask themselves, “And why should I listen to/believe this?” It tells me that we need good catechesis for our children, as well as making sure they grasp what it means to live their lives for Christ as he has called us to do. A whole generation is slipping away because of ignorance and the allure of “greener pastures”.
Totally agree. One thing I told my friend is that she needs to keep in mind that most Catholics aren’t really taught to go out and rip people away from their faith, which I suspect is what was going on here given some of the comments her daughter made. We’re here with open arms for anyone who wishes to join us, but if there are groups of Catholics who go around actively trying to pry people away from their churches, I guess I must have missed them or fallen asleep during that part of the homily where father taught us some “anti-baptist” material. Especially since I moved South, there is a much stronger anti-Catholic sentiment here and it’s very easy for someone weak in their faith or knowledge of the Church to fall victim to that. The whole organ donor thing was odd, though, because as an RN I’m pretty aware of the fact that nearly NO religion discourages its members from becoming a donor. Even the JWs aren’t against it as long as the organ has been drained of all blood prior to donation. That was sort of a red flat that this “group” was far out on the fringe, so yeah, I’m glad she seems to have come back to her senses…hopefully she’ll be a much stronger Catholic having gone through this!
 
I find the Marian dogmas (Assumption and Immaculate Conception) the most difficult to defend. Historic evidence is rather scant, and Biblical evidence is almost non-existent.

Opponents of the Immaculate Conception often point out that St. Thomas Aquinas (regarded as the greatest Doctor of the Church) did not support this doctrine. This is a case where the charge is simple (and accurate), but the defense is complex (the Galileo affair is another such situation, but the stakes are not as high because Dogma is not involved).

If the subject is Eucharist, I’m all in. But Marian doctrines are another thing.

Maybe this is because, as a protestant, I found the Marian doctrines the most difficult to accept. I only came to accept them because I came to accept the teaching authority of the Church, and once I did that, I was obliged to accept (at least with the intellect) everything the Church teaches.
 
I find the Marian dogmas (Assumption and Immaculate Conception) the most difficult to defend. Historic evidence is rather scant, and Biblical evidence is almost non-existent.

Opponents of the Immaculate Conception often point out that St. Thomas Aquinas (regarded as the greatest Doctor of the Church) did not support this doctrine. This is a case where the charge is simple (and accurate), but the defense is complex (the Galileo affair is another such situation, but the stakes are not as high because Dogma is not involved).

If the subject is Eucharist, I’m all in. But Marian doctrines are another thing.

Maybe this is because, as a protestant, I found the Marian doctrines the most difficult to accept. I only came to accept them because I came to accept the teaching authority of the Church, and once I did that, I was obliged to accept (at least with the intellect) everything the Church teaches.
A wonderfully honest, sincere response and exactly what I was looking for when I made this post. I have had a similar difficulty at times, and some of that stemmed from a while back when JPII was speaking in terms of Mary as co-redemptrix. That seemed to really stir up some debate.

In my case, I have a very good friend of many years who is the most devout Catholic I know. He had always been encouraging me to do two things to further my faith: First, he guided me to focus on praying for the blessed souls in purgatory and, in turn, asking them to pray for me. Second, he was always getting on me about saying the Rosary, or at least getting in a few Hail Marys. Oddly enough, I found that by involving both Mary and the blessed souls more in my prayer life, I felt more at peace and more present with the Lord. It was similar - but not quite as profound - as how I feel when I’m meditating in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament in the adoration chapel. I also heard Patrick (the host of the radio show) make a comment along the lines of, “it’s not possible for us to love Mary more than Jesus loved her.” That really has resonated with me.

But obviously this experience doesn’t mean a hill of beans in terms of apologetics lol…so the approach you have taken makes perfect sense to me. The idea of an earthly authority, and the Catholic Church in the role of that authority, is something I believe wholeheartedly, and it certainly is an excellent “in” when it comes to accepting/defending the teachings on Mary.

Great post!
 
I read some of the great saints on Marian teachings and that helped me, too, although I was already inclined to accept them since I had a personal encounter with her as a Protestant. 😉 What we need to understand and keep firmly in mind is that Marian teachings are first and foremost Christological in nature. They teach us about Christ and his mission more than they tell us about Mary. That’s something that can be hard for converts to grasp unless and until they do a bit of research into Marian teachings.

One needs to know why the Church teaches what it does about any doctrine/dogma in order to properly defend it. And one needs to understand the proper place the Bible has within Sacred Tradition. This latter issue is one that our Protestant brethren generally cannot understand because they’ve been taught to believe that the Bible is the end-all and be-all in matters of faith and morals. Prying them away from that idea is the hardest thing to do. They need to be ready to hear it, especially if they’ve been told to not trust the Church, along with their “Bible only” tenet. And those who came from that background need time to assimilate the truth about the Bible with regards to how the Church formulates/develops doctrine/dogma.
 
I find the Marian dogmas (Assumption and Immaculate Conception) the most difficult to defend. Historic evidence is rather scant, and Biblical evidence is almost non-existent.

Opponents of the Immaculate Conception often point out that St. Thomas Aquinas (regarded as the greatest Doctor of the Church) did not support this doctrine. This is a case where the charge is simple (and accurate), but the defense is complex (the Galileo affair is another such situation, but the stakes are not as high because Dogma is not involved).

If the subject is Eucharist, I’m all in. But Marian doctrines are another thing.

Maybe this is because, as a protestant, I found the Marian doctrines the most difficult to accept. I only came to accept them because I came to accept the teaching authority of the Church, and once I did that, I was obliged to accept (at least with the intellect) everything the Church teaches.
You know, that’s really interesting. Because when I look at the Scriptures and the Church’s Tradition, I see tons of support for the Marian doctrines – including the Assumption, her perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception, but especially Mother of God. I used to have difficulty finding the Immaculate Conception and Assumption in the Church Fathers, but that was before I started reading them on my own. If you rely on lists that pull quotes out, then it may seem like there isn’t strong support. But if you understand how doctrines are sometimes implied obscurely in the Fathers rather than stated directly, it becomes easier to see where their writings continuously pushed forward the doctrines of our Faith until they were officially proclaimed.

For example, with the Assumption, while the early Fathers don’t usually say simply, “Mary was taken into heaven,” many of them do talk about how she defeated death (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin Martyr), and at least one early Father (Hippolytus in 235 A.D.) made the important observation that Mary was imperishable (which literally means unable to die). The Scriptural testimony includes John’s testimony that Mary was bodily in heaven, but also many clear prophesies of the Assumption, such as the prophesy that the Messiah’s queen would be taken to His right hand – Psalms 45:9. Now if “Sit thou at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool” is a prophesy of Christ’s ascension, then surely “The queen stands at your right hand” is a prophesy of Mary’s assumption. For to place either Christ at the right hand of God, or the queen at the right hand of Christ, implies that they will be taken there.

Or take the prophesy contained in the Song of Solomon, that God would call out to His daughter, “Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away, O my dove. In the clefts of the rock, in the covert of the cliff, let me see your face.” Canticles 2:13-14. For the Scripture commands, and the woman arises. What woman, then, has risen into heaven except Mary? For no one else is even claimed to have done this but in our faith.

Then there’s the various hymns about the Ark of the Covenant going up with the Messiah to heaven. 2 Chronicles 6:41-42 is clearly messianic in this regard, and Psalm 132 picks up that refrain and makes it a prophesy of the Messiah. Now it would be well to ask those who do not accept the Assumption: how then did Christ fulfill this prophesy? Why is He foretold to arise with His ark, and what is the ark He is supposed to take with Him? Protestants have no answer for that question, but the fact that He would arise with His ark is contained in one of the most important Messianic psalms of the Old Testament.

With the Immaculate Conception the evidence is even more sublime. The Church Fathers not only talk constantly about Mary defeating the “original deception” of our first parents, (and that goes back to the second century and continues from then until today,) but some of them come right out and explicitly state that Mary was formed without original sin, such as Proclus of Constantinople in Homily 1. He lived in A.D. 446. Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy of the redemption. The woman is Mary, her seed is Jesus, the serpent is the devil, “he shall strike at your head” means the devil and sin will be defeated, and “you shall strike at his heel” means Christ’s foot will be wounded (think of the nail). The key is that it comes right after the Original Sin was committed. God is promising the removal of sin in the enmity with Satan (and his defeat) that is shared by Jesus and Mary. So Mary and Jesus had no sin because they were part of the redemption and removal of sin planned by God. It’s all in that prophesy.

Not to mention that Gen. 3:15 was spoken not only with reference to the serpent, but with reference to Eve herself, making it a promise of a new Eve. Now Mary would not make a very good new Eve if she had the very same fault for which the old one was replaced. So the very fact that Scripture promises a woman in place of Eve, as a response to the sin that Eve committed, implies that the new woman will not share the defect that Eve transmitted.

I could go on, but suffice it to say that to me the doctrines of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception and the other Marian doctrines are absolutely established in Scripture, not only by the New Testament but by the prophesies, and that gives me comfort when reasoning with Protestants about them.
 
A thought on Mary being sinless.
Mary had to be sinless for her yes to free just as Eve was sinless for her yes to be free.
 
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