Subsidiarity and Labor Unions

[maggiemay2u]

Pope Leo XIII writes 60+ points ON CAPITAL AND LABOR and all this time he was secretly describing the Freemason’s?

And it matters that it was written 100 years ago? How long ago were our Holy Books written? Do they lack standing now because they are so old?

Believe what you choose to believe.

When the Church speaks of unions, I can’t help but think they’re looking at those brave men and women of Poland and the rest of the Eastern Block, as they stood up for the principles of self determination. I simply can’t believe they would be looking at the modern day union patricians who live off the dues of members, basking in expensive resorts and currying personal gain by making donations to political entities.

I have worked with, for and against unions. I know they started with good intentions, but morphed into corrupt powerhouses. I have seen union bosses gloat about the legislators “in their pockets”. I have seen how union stewards can be the worst employees in the shop, yet never be disciplined, and laugh about how management wouldn’t dare try to do something to they or their friends. Recently, I have seen how the union traded favors with the administration in regards to the health care plan.

Unless unions are revamped and their abuse of influence curbed, there will be little , impetus to have sympathy for them, and sadly, by extension, their members.

 

[human_being]

When the Church speaks of unions, I can’t help but think they’re looking at those brave men and women of Poland and the rest of the Eastern Block, as they stood up for the principles of self determination. I simply can’t believe they would be looking at the modern day union patricians who live off the dues of members, basking in expensive resorts and currying personal gain by making donations to political entities.

I have worked with, for and against unions. I know they started with good intentions, but morphed into corrupt powerhouses. I have seen union bosses gloat about the legislators “in their pockets”. I have seen how union stewards can be the worst employees in the shop, yet never be disciplined, and laugh about how management wouldn’t dare try to do something to they or their friends. Recently, I have seen how the union traded favors with the administration in regards to the health care plan.

Unless unions are revamped and their abuse of influence curbed, there will be little , impetus to have sympathy for them, and sadly, by extension, their members.

Sorry but your stance is wrong. The new Hly Father does not differentiate on what his opinion of a “good” union is nor a bad. But he does state in his new encyclical that unions need to be supported NOW more than ever. And it is an urgent call. I agree the unions may need some changes but the Pope callls for honouring labor unions and promoting them right now…He feels it’s very necessary in changing the morals of this economic mentality and crisis on our hands today.

 

[maggiemay2u]

I cannot, in good conscience support the waste, greed, cronyism and corruption I found in SEIU, Teamsters, and AFL-CIO. Ditto for public employees unions, especially police and teachers’ unions. They have outlived their usefulness.

Small, individual unions, or co-ops serve the purpose the mega unions did in their early days. I would gladly support them.

 

[human_being]

I cannot, in good conscience support the waste, greed, cronyism and corruption I found in SEIU, Teamsters, and AFL-CIO. Ditto for public employees unions, especially police and teachers’ unions. They have outlived their usefulness.

Small, individual unions, or co-ops serve the purpose the mega unions did in their early days. I would gladly support them.

Maybe you should ask the Pope which unions he means,because his call is urgent. Is the small union lobby big enough to have the effects which are necessary to change the moral state of business today which the Holy Father says needs changing. It sounds to me like the argument abortion supporters who say Abortion should be OK if rape is invlved. It’s a downplaying of the statement. The economic mindset which has been anti-union since Reagan has been a cause of the economic problems we have today. 63% of small business owners do not provide healthcare yet the conservatives of today just push for small businesses and toot their horn that they pay so many taxes. The unions provide health insurance and retirement plans…systems of social security which the Pope says are on decline since the unions are having a hard time with membership. He says the promotion of workers associations need to be supported now more than ever. And it is urgent. He does not differentiate between Polish unions,modern U.S. unions or any. He just says they need to be promoted now more than ever… If people would not have left the unions and taken opposing sstances on top of it we would have no need for socialist programs such as national healthcare. But the business world found ways and laws to undermine the unions. Regulations are taken awy which undermine the common goood and weaken the unions. Many businesses have and are being deregulated which has caused a weakening in the solidarity of trades for profits sake over the common good. And the fear of people losing their jobs has been deeeply instilled in the tradesmen’s minds.

If our large unions are weak,how can they fight the grave injustices which have skyrocketed aroound the world.The unions have always advocated for retirement plans and healthcare. But since the Reagan era less and less workers have them and now seek socialist ways to provide for them. The unions provided in capitalist ways. And what makes negotiations stronger is large numbers Polititians are more likely to listen to large numbers(unions) than small numbers when it comes to legislation. without a large lobby the laws will surely change for the worse and more laborers throughout the world will suffer

Unions also advocated "buy American"  And "buy union"   which woiuld lead consumers to buy procucts from employers who are treating their employees for the common good not just for profits sake therefore the consumer was also not commiting an injustice with his money for spending on companies which mistreat employees throughout the world. But nobody listens and the voice grows smaller. and the injusstices grow larger. The promoters of todays economic mindset will not stop the abuses for profit is at the forefront,not the common good of a family,community,nor society.

The president of the Teamsters is in charge of 1.4 million members today.He SHOULD be paid well for that. It is alot of responsibility. IMO alot of people who think it is wrong for union leaders to make money would never say that about a CEO even though he may be sinking a company. They’d say his salary should never be cappped,especially if he is sinking a company with union employees. It is hatred and fear and jealousy and greed which lead people to attack unions. the Holy father calls us to change this attitude.Maybe the unions you speak of are fine,but the call is urgent and numbers are important The unions can be changed from the inside,if we have time,cause alot are sinking now. There are less than 6% union employees in the private sector today. This needs to change if the injustices throughout the world are to change. Every institution has sinners.

And Are not the sins you speak of greed and corruption also found in business today. I think it is business which aided in the shrinking of unions today And it is greed which drives the ideals to rid the country of unions. And the economic mindset which has grown prevalent needs a major overhaul.It is so easy for people secure in there incomes to bully young poor women who seek abortion as an answer to her economic dilema…Yet so easy to to disuade people from joining labor unions which would probably cause more stable marriages and less abortions…because it may affect their own bank account or make them work harder…I wonder what the Pope thinks of that?
When union numbers were up…so too were succesful and lasting marriages and abortion numbers were lower.
The unions need to be changed from the inside if IMO. And so to does the mindset of the conservatives which attack them.

 

[maggiemay2u]

Christ tells us to help the poor–though He didn’t articulate it, I’m pretty sure He didn’t mean for us to help the poor by bullying or stealing from others. It’s kind of a given. So let it be with unions. Support those that are honest and run by non-profit seeking, not personally greedy, non-racketeering, entities.

You mention the greed of corporations. Indeed, many are. That’s there raison d’etre. To produce goods and services and make profits for owners and shareholders. I’m not defending greed, I’m saying there is no hypocrisy involved.

Not so with mega unions. When representing union members, I saw the bosses curry favors with legislators with union donations, and magically their kid was hired as an aide or intern. Or state employee union reps making donations to federal elections, and voila, they have invitations to inaugural balls, which they and their families attend–all on the members’ dime. Keep in mind, the feds have little sway in state employee negotiations, but they sure had a good time on their little vacation. This is the definition, in my mind, of corruption and hypocrisy and greed.

I cannot in good conscience support mega union corruption and greed. Sorry. Just the way it rolls.

 

[thejoemeister]

Here’s another from 1901:papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13grcom.htm
We’re on the right track,you and I,Ithink. No matter what it seems that alot of changes must take place for it all to work out properly.

1. We have designedly made mention here of virtue and religion. For, it is the opinion of some, and the error is already very common, that the social question is merely an economic one, whereas in point of fact it is, above all, a moral and religious matter, and for that reason must be settled by the principles of morality and according to the dictates of religion. For, even though wages are doubled and the hours of labor are shortened and food is cheapened, yet, if the working man hearkens to the doctrines that are taught on this subject, as he is prone to do, and is prompted by the examples set before him to throw off respect for God and to enter upon a life of immorality, his labors and his gain will avail him naught.
2. Trial and experience have made it abundantly clear that many a workman lives in cramped and miserable quarters, in spite of his shorter hours and larger wages, simply because he has cast aside the restraints of morality and religion. Take away the instinct which Christian wisdom has planted and nurtured in men’s hearts, take away foresight, temperance, frugality, patience, and other rightful, natural habits, no matter how much he may strive, he will never achieve prosperity. That is the reason why We have incessantly exhorted Catholics to enter these associations for bettering the condition of the laboring classes, and to organize other undertakings with the same object in view; but We have likewise warned them that all this should be done under the auspices of religion, with its help and under its guidance.

I think lack of respect for God has permeated every class of our society…refering to the last sentence of #11 above. And it is availing us all naught.

I believe we agree upon the premise of the necessity for working men to unite in some type of association. The question is the “HOW”. How do Christian working men apply the doctrine without violating other doctrines, Faith, Scripture, etc? This is where the rubber meets the road. It is important that we Christians do our best to correct wrongs in the economic systems around us, and yet we need to remember to do so in a Christian way, that glorifies God first.

Pope Leo makes it clear that not all unions are good for Christians, and proposes a remedy. All based on Scripture too!

BTW, just a side note. The one thing I don’t ever see mentioned about the “working man”, unions, etc, is the simple fact that I can choose, at least in America still, whether to stay the “working man”, or go out on my own and start my own business.

We need to remember that here in America, at least, if you don’t like the current “working man” conditions, You can leave and go somewhere else, change career fields, start your own business and become “management”. (You know-go over to the dark side)

 

[thejoemeister]

I have actually used the same type of stuff you speak of in defense of unions. Because the politics of today has every answer against them. So you are very mistaken to assume that I don’t believe in words written from a pope 100 years ago. As amatter of fact I have a few of them in my favorites bar of this computer.

Was not mistaken about anything. The reason I proposed the questions in my response was to make sure I was not mistaken. It’s why I asked-not assumed. Sorry.

 

[Secret_Square]

I cannot, in good conscience support the waste, greed, cronyism and corruption I found in SEIU, Teamsters, and AFL-CIO. Ditto for public employees unions, especially police and teachers’ unions. They have outlived their usefulness.

I gotta second you on that one. I particularly dislike SEIU because

1. they were big financial and political supporters of our infamous ex-governor Blagojevich, long after the rest of the state knew or should have known he was not only crooked but completely nuts
2. their strong-armed takeover of the home health care industry in our state; supposedly they are fighting for better wages and benefits for these people, but in actuality, they are making home health care workers take the money they USED to pay toward insurance and spend it on union dues;
3. their insistence that a massive income tax hike is the ONLY way to preserve essential social services in Illinois;
4. their endorsement of abortion and same-sex marriage; and
5. their role (along with ACORN) in electing the Abortion President.

If I remember correctly, didn’t the AFL and CIO, which merged in the 1950s, break up a few years ago because they disagreed about how much of their resources should be spent on political campaigns vs. actually helping workers?

Also, police and firefighter’s unions are good at invoking 9/11 and other disasters to justify demanding all sorts of benefits which states and cities know they will not be able to pay for in the future.

All that being said, however, I can see where unions do and have done a lot of good in the past, and the Church should defend the basic right of workers to unionize. Just because SOME unions have abused their power doesn’t mean they should all be abolished.

 

[human_being]

Christ tells us to help the poor–though He didn’t articulate it, I’m pretty sure He didn’t mean for us to help the poor by bullying or stealing from others. It’s kind of a given. So let it be with unions. Support those that are honest and run by non-profit seeking, not personally greedy, non-racketeering, entities.

You mention the greed of corporations. Indeed, many are. That’s there raison d’etre. To produce goods and services and make profits for owners and shareholders. I’m not defending greed, I’m saying there is no hypocrisy involved.

Not so with mega unions. When representing union members, I saw the bosses curry favors with legislators with union donations, and magically their kid was hired as an aide or intern. Or state employee union reps making donations to federal elections, and voila, they have invitations to inaugural balls, which they and their families attend–all on the members’ dime. Keep in mind, the feds have little sway in state employee negotiations, but they sure had a good time on their little vacation. This is the definition, in my mind, of corruption and hypocrisy and greed.

I cannot in good conscience support mega union corruption and greed. Sorry. Just the way it rolls.

The business world and even small places give the same kinds of treatment to family,friends and business associates. It’s the way it is. Unions are not charities. And mega unions deal with mega amounts of people. Small business employees may get invited to a local gun-club steak fry. Mega union officials get invited to inaugural balls. Small business family and friends may get a job as a manager at a hardware store and I don’t think it would matter if they are union. It’s human nature. I don’t doubt that state reps children get jobs at different businesses due to the influence of their parents wether they deserve the job or not. There is this kind of immoral stuff everywhere, Judas was a hand-picked disciple.He was Corrupt and unfair. He sold the Lord out for 20 silver pieces. God showed us then the nature of the beast. It’s human nature. And why you hold these standards to union leaders is beyond me. But when it comes to unions who help the poor and uneducated get a better standard of life they are supposed to be more perfect than even Jesus’ 1st hand picked followers. It would look kind of ridiculous if Jimmy Hoffa rode up to a negotiating meeting with Bill Zollars of YRC in a 15 year old piece of junk car, negotiating for 40,000 teamsters. He represents 1.4 million members. Unions are not Franciscan Friars begging alms.

The Pope calls for urgency in His encyclical.You my friend are trying to slow the process down with the excuses and union bashing which sway people from joining them The Pope says the unions need to be promoted now,more than ever. The conservative anti-union mindset has swayed things in the wrong direction for long enough to break the whole world. It is the large numbers which sway legislators to favor more fair business policies,aimed at the common good than aimed at just for the individual. It is the unions if mumbers increase that can change things more for the whole than the individual. It is not the individual who can change things on a level that needs to be changed. And large unions can help that. I may add that I have no problem with small unions. But I think with the urgency at hand they will not have the needed effect. It’s numbers that are necessary Large numbers will do the trick better.

 

[human_being]

Why is it OK that businessmen hobknob with legislators but not union reps? Businessmen have been doing their fair share of it in favor of busting unions…NAFTA,deregulating industries,right-to-work,freetrade,and otherways which make it difficult to organise.

But anyways…somebody needs to talk about subsidiarity or we’ll be flagged.

 

[human_being]

When It has been written that people should not have abortions people jump on the bandwagon,especially the well off They want to stop the abortion and save the life as the Pope’s call for. Even though the baby may have been concieved in sin,and maybe even if the mother doesn’t even intend to stay christian. But they save the life wether the mother is,was,or is going to be aconverted christian.

Yet when a Pope calls on the people to save the unions it matters considerably to the people where they came from,what sins were commited. Will they become christian?
Will they sin again? Are they righteous enough?..They don’t ask that of the woman though…They just do the right thing,as they were called to do by the Pope.
And they should do the right thing on this issue malso,for this issue when dealt with correctly provides things in capitalist type ways. It supports the sacrements of marriage. And if the numbers increase I strongly believe the abortion numbers will decrease for the unions are designed to help the class who aborts the most babies.