Suddenly confused...

[paramedicgirl]

I am worried about going to a TLM as I have gone to the NO all my life and I constantly have to close my eyes in prayer to focus on the Mass itself and not on the abuses. (I live in California)

There is a real fear as people who like the EF Mass are viewed suspiciously and talked as if they reject the Pope, and are crazy. Latin is not something you want to mention in my parish.

I saw the Ordinary form of the Mass done with reverence for the first time, (in Latin) a while ago and it actually seemed like we were truly focusing on God, it was great. So I too am worried as I don’t want to feel any worse when I am attending my parish.
I don’t want to poison the Mass which I attend by seeing something that from what it sounds like, really focuses on worship of God.

The more I study of Catholic worship the more I resist going to the EF of the Mass as I don’t want to get hooked. I want to participate and help my parish be faithful and it is very difficult to do so as the more I know, the more I feel I need to stand up for.

What is a person to do? Just close my eyes and ignore everything? I don’t think there is anything wrong with liking the Latin Mass, I just don’t know if it is right to limit my conscience.

God Bless
Scylla

You should go and experience a TLM. There is nothing wrong with prefering one rite over another. I don’t think you need to worry about some of the things you mentioned. If more people start attending the TLM, then the NO Masses will become more reverent. I’m sure that was the plan of the Holy Spirit, after all - to restore the sacred reverence to the Mass.

 

[Orate_Fratres]

I too was (still am) in a similar situation as you, I was raised in the Ordinary Form and after some time “in the desert” and rediscovered my faith, I returned to the Church in the Ordinary Form.

When I first discovered the TLM, I was immediately drawn to how it touches all the senses, how it radiated a sense of the sacred and “otherworldliness”. What struck me about the TLM, was the “small things”, bowing the head when “Jesu Christe” was said, the frequent genuflections/bow/kneeling, the “smells and bells”, etc. It changed the why I think and made me look at the Mass in a way I never thought of before and also shook my faith too (in a good way), especially so since I had recently “rediscovered” it. I never was the same again.

There are times I felt like the “odd man”, being the only one among my friends and family (apart from my cousin) who attends and cherishes the TLM. But I still go, regardless. Like what others have said, it’s not wrong to feel drawn to the TLM. It is after all, a part of the Church’s tradition, a legitimate aspiration and I’ve grown spiritually from it (with still much more room for me to go… )

Plus, it has helped me better understand and pray the Ordinary Form as well

 

[LilyM]

Rachele Ann, would you be so kind as to answer a few questions?
I have been wondering how a Novus Ordo parish would celebrate the TLM.
Was the TLM celebrated by a FSSP priest or the parish priest that normally celebrates the OF?
Was the Tabernacle placed back on the altar or was it still located somewhere else?
Was the Mass celebrated with altar boys or altar girls?
Was communion received standing or kneeling?
Was communion given on the tongue or in the hand?

OF means ‘Ordinary Form’ - the Novus Ordo.

“tabernacle placed back on the altar”? Puh-leeze. 90% of the NO parishes I’ve attended (and that’s been many, all over this country and a few others) have ALWAYS had the Tabernacle on the (still intact) High Altar and never moved it anywhere else. Even those built post-Vatican 2 have most always had the Tabernacle behind the altar.

 

[tcraig]

So sorry, see I’m so confused I can’t even post clearly! I grew up with the NO but now feel inexplicably drawn to the TLM. It sort of changes the way I view the NO which I grew up with and have always loved.

I didn’t grow up with the NO (I’m a convert) but I have attended some beautifully celebrated NO masses. I don’t look at it as being anything “less” than the TLM in the way puzzleannie implied.

That said, I used to attend an FSSP parish, and I grew to love the TLM in a way I never thought I would. It was different at first learning the new rubrics, but once I had settled in I found myself able to concentrate and pray in a way I never had been able to before. I especially loved the periods of silence.

When I was unable to attend the TLM, going back to a NO mass was especially jarring. It just seemed so loud and busy, with far too much talking.

I still occasionally get to attend a TLM, and everytime I do I leave mass feeling spiritually nourished in a way I just don’t at the NO. It’s not just the music or the “smells and bells”. I think, for me, the silence makes as much of an impact as anything else.

 

[BobP123]

The reverence is an obvious point, but it can be found during a NO mass, but reverence, with all the aesthetics, borders on superficiality when we consider the actual form and rubrics of the Mass of Ages.

But liturgical dance or having the entire congregation in the sanctuary or guitar music can be reverent too, no?

Just being a devil’s advocate here.

 

[palmas85]

But liturgical dance or having the entire congregation in the sanctuary or guitar music can be reverent too, no?

Just being a devil’s advocate here.

I don’t really see how.

 

[JRKH]

So sorry, see I’m so confused I can’t even post clearly! I grew up with the NO but now feel inexplicably drawn to the TLM. It sort of changes the way I view the NO which I grew up with and have always loved.

Rachele Ann,
I haven’t read through all the posts but will add my 2c.

First of all let me say that you are indeed fortunate to have grown up in a relatively concervative parish/diocese, This has, I am sure, allowed you to see and participate in a beautiful and reverent N.O. Your love to the N.O. and your current confusion about the TLM probably spring from that.

There really is no need to feel that you hve to choose one over the other, or that liking one over the other is somehow disloyal. My wife and I attend the N.O. at our local parish during the week and the TLM in another parish on Sunday. We see no conflict at all. Each mass offers something different and somewhat unique. In my view, they are complimentary to each other, not contradictory.

Maybe it would help you to sort out if you made a list of things you like about each Mass. You might even make a list of things you dislike about each. You’ll probably see that the lists really don’t conflict with each other and, in fact, the Mass you prefer might depend on what mood your in at a given time.

My Advise: Enjoy them both. If you are drawn to theTLM, then go to this if you have a choice. Otherwise attend the N.O. with joy.

James

 

[JRKH]

OF means ‘Ordinary Form’ - the Novus Ordo.

“tabernacle placed back on the altar”? Puh-leeze. 90% of the NO parishes I’ve attended (and that’s been many, all over this country and a few others) have ALWAYS had the Tabernacle on the (still intact) High Altar and never moved it anywhere else. Even those built post-Vatican 2 have most always had the Tabernacle behind the altar.

You are fortunate indeed.
In Cincinnati there is a concerted effort to remove the tabernacle to the side, or even to another space. Also I hvave been to 2"Catholic" Churches here without kneelers. These practices truly disturb me. Just another reason I need to suport the TLM as a counterbalance if nothing else.

James

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Whoops! I got your first post backwards!

 

[stmaria]

OF means ‘Ordinary Form’ - the Novus Ordo.

“tabernacle placed back on the altar”? Puh-leeze. 90% of the NO parishes I’ve attended (and that’s been many, all over this country and a few others) have ALWAYS had the Tabernacle on the (still intact) High Altar and never moved it anywhere else. Even those built post-Vatican 2 have most always had the Tabernacle behind the altar.

I have been to Catholic Churches all over the U.S. In the vast majority of the new Chruches, the Tabernacle is not in the sanctuary. Many times it is in a separate chapel. Many have crucifixes that do not have the body of Christ.

 

[JRKH]

I have been to Catholic Churches all over the U.S. In the vast majority of the new Chruches, the Tabernacle is not in the sanctuary. Many times it is in a separate chapel. Many have crucifixes that do not have the body of Christ.

Is it any wonder that many Catholics are attracted to the older and more reverent TLM?

James

 

[LilyM]

You are fortunate indeed.
In Cincinnati there is a concerted effort to remove the tabernacle to the side, or even to another space. Also I hvave been to 2"Catholic" Churches here without kneelers. These practices truly disturb me. Just another reason I need to suport the TLM as a counterbalance if nothing else.

James

No, I’m not especially fortunate. Like I said, I’ve been to plenty of churches in other countries too, we’re not particularly blessed in Australia. You’re assuming all countries must be like the US and all places like your own local diocese.

And yes, one of my favourite local churches has no kneelers, sure, but there are cushions under the pews for use when kneeling, and it is well-carpeted, so kneeling isn’t a problem.

But that’s such a minor point - nothing to get disturbed about. After all, our brothers in the Eastern Rites, if I understand correctly, often stand during the consecration, so no reason why we can’t Both are very reverent and respectful gestures.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

But liturgical dance or having the entire congregation in the sanctuary or guitar music can be reverent too, no?

Just being a devil’s advocate here.

Yes it can. The ancient Greeks, who danced during the Bacchic rites, certainly revered Bacchus.

That’s where it becomes dangerous. If the real motive is irreverence it is just an everday abuse. Reverent dancing before the tabernacle to the sound of timbril and harp might just achieve its stated object.

 

[paramedicgirl]

OF means ‘Ordinary Form’ - the Novus Ordo.

“tabernacle placed back on the altar”? Puh-leeze. 90% of the NO parishes I’ve attended (and that’s been many, all over this country and a few others) have ALWAYS had the Tabernacle on the (still intact) High Altar and never moved it anywhere else. Even those built post-Vatican 2 have most always had the Tabernacle behind the altar.

While that may be true for your country, many of the Churches in Canada do NOT have the Tabernacle anywhere near the sanctuary. It’s very common to see the Tabernacle in a side chapel, and not even have it in the main church at all. And try to find a High Altar in Canada! It’s like looking for Waldo!

One church in my former diocese even put the Tabernacle in a closet for while, until pressure from the people caused it to be returned to the church. Very few churches I have been to have the Tabernacle behind the main altar. It is either shoved off to the side, or in a separate chapel altogether. Good thing for that red sanctuary lamp, otherwise we might never be able to find the Tabernacle!

 

[LilyM]

While that may be true for your country, many of the Churches in Canada do NOT have the Tabernacle anywhere near the sanctuary. It’s very common to see the Tabernacle in a side chapel, and not even have it in the main church at all. And try to find a High Altar in Canada! It’s like looking for Waldo!

One church in my former diocese even put the Tabernacle in a closet for while, until pressure from the people caused it to be returned to the church. Very few churches I have been to have the Tabernacle behind the main altar. It is either shoved off to the side, or in a separate chapel altogether. Good thing for that red sanctuary lamp, otherwise we might never be able to find the Tabernacle!

There’s nothing at all wrong with having the Blessed Sacrament reserved in its own side chapel. It can be an extremely good thing, in that those who wish to spend time in adoration can do so undisturbed even while Mass is occuring in the main body of the Church.

Although of course having it in a closet or elsewhere is another story

 

[KathleenElsie]

OF means ‘Ordinary Form’ - the Novus Ordo.

“tabernacle placed back on the altar”? Puh-leeze. 90% of the NO parishes I’ve attended (and that’s been many, all over this country and a few others) have ALWAYS had the Tabernacle on the (still intact) High Altar and never moved it anywhere else. Even those built post-Vatican 2 have most always had the Tabernacle behind the altar.

I attend Mass in a few parishes.

My home parish has the tabernacle in the center of the wall behind the area the priest stands in. The priest has has back to the Altar. We also have a risen Christ on the wall.

The parish next to ours has the tabernacle to the right side of the Altar table in an very nicely decorated alcove. They have a Crucifix on their wall behind the Altar table.

A sister parish of ours has the tabernacle in a small side room with two very comfortable chairs for adoration. They have a mural of Noah’s Ark on the wall behind the Altar.

My sons parish placed the tabernacle in a small closet behind the Central table (sorry can’t call it an Altar). They have a wooden picture of a Crucifix that is carried and then inserted into the painted cross on the wall.

So I have learned to look for the hanging (most of the time) RED Candle or light to see where they put our Lord. This is the only way I can tell which way to genuflect in reverence to the Lord.

 

[BobP123]

There’s nothing at all wrong with having the Blessed Sacrament reserved in its own side chapel.

Actually the Tabernacle has its Scriptural basis Exodus 25, the Holy of Holies. Two cherubims, etc. The Blessed Sacrament is not always there, for example on Good Friday, (and in the Jewish Temple for that matter) but we should still have that intimate relationship with God that He wanted us to have.

 

[Rachele_Ann]

WOW, everyone has contributed so much good advice and encouragement! Thank you! This is a long posting but I’m trying to respond to some of the bigger points this thread has raised.

1. sphilomena and JRKH you both made a comforting comment in stating I don’t have to feel disloyal for preferring the TLM, that is exactly what it feels like!
2. tccraig- I too am drawn by the silence in the Mass. I had long been under the impression that Vatican II was doing away with unnecessary frills, making things more simple and yet after my first TLM I was struck by the simplicity. I also like the proper reverence and honor it gives to our priests… I’d be very surprised if the more widely available TLM doesn’t increase respect for the priesthood and priestly vocations.
3. LilyM and all in on the discussion of where the tabernacle is… brace yourselves! Before the tabernacle was moved to its proper place in the church… the spot belonging to the high altar was not empty and neglected. It is where our priests and servers used to sit during Mass.

The Church is asking the impossible of young people- to reject sex and consumerism with zero support, even from itself.

Malcom I don’t disagree with your posting but I don’t think it applies to me… I’m in no danger of leaving the church, although you are correct in saying that many do… and I’m not drawn to the Latin Mass to be part of a movement. The above comment, I find particularly difficult. The young adult and Church community at large may not really be offering active support for the rejection of sex and consumerism but they do offer prayers. Secondly, the grace for mastering one’s self in these areas comes from God, support might be nice (I wouldn’t know, there is some truth to your statement) but I don’t need a virgin-friend to keep myself pure. It is not easy, but my friends love me and after they came the the conclusion I’m not just a “late bloomer” they at least respect my moral choices.

1. It is really amazing as everyone leaves Mass, all anyone says to Father is “thank you”. It reminds me we should be thanking priests more often but it also says a good deal about how badly people want to learn about and attend the TLM.
2. I am blessed to come from a conservative NO parish and the Masses are offered with great reverence by our wonderful priests, I think that is why I feel so confused about my attraction the TLM as JRKH mentioned. Some of you have mentioned witnessing terrible liturgical abuses, guitars, and liturgical dancing… I think my pastor would have a stroke if stuff like that happened in our parish. So it isn’t that there is anything wrong with the way Mass is offered at my parish, it is beautiful and holy… but now, at least for me, its different.

I think that touches on the big points… thanks especially for those of you that contributed that were brought up in NO parishes and then found you also preferred the Latin Mass.

 

[Rachele_Ann]

With God inspired biblical names like Rachele & Ann, what would you expect?
Actually, that’s what normally happens. The opposite would be the exception. The inexplicable is call the Holy Ghost and His Angels.

If you’d ask my mother what she expected to achieve with those names… it had precious little to do with the Mass and much to do with grandchildren. She probably figured, she’s be sure to have a bunch if she named me after two great mothers.

 

[JRKH]

Rachele Ann,
So glad we could help.
I truly believe that over time many more people are going to come to the conclusion that both rites have unique advantages. Then the EF and the OF will exist side by side and in another 40 years peole will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Don’t know if you saw them but there are a couple of polls set up that you might be interested in looking at or participating in.

The First relates to age groups and is at
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=195480

The other looks at preferences in both the N.O. and the TLM. It is at:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=195769

The results have been interesting. They seem to be showing that the TLM is developing a following across the board age wise.
I hope that you will encourage others to give the TLM a try and see if they like it.

May God continue to Bless you on your Journey

James