Suffering and sense experience

[Pete_1]

Is detecting bad smells a type of suffering (e.g the smell of rotting animal carcass or feaces)

If not why?

If so in what way did these things exist (if at all) before the fall (when Adam and Eve did not have to suffer).

 

[Katholish]

Yes, smell can be a form of suffering.

It is not entirely clear whether things that could cause bad smells would have been present in the garden or not (since it is possible there was no physical evil of any kind), but regardless, man in his preternatural state (as he existed before the fall) had his likes and dislikes entirely in tune with the presense of goodness in a thing. In other words, all things that exist are good (spiders and flesh eating-bacteria including). Now a days, we see these things as largely repulsive, but that is because we do not see them as good. Our perception and understanding of things has been damaged by the fall, and so we see things as evil (or smell things as evil) even though they are not evil by nature, and it would be possible to not think of them as such. Adam and Eve would have seen what was good as good, and so the perception could not have been unpleasant for them, regardless of the how offense that perception would be to us now.

 

[Pete_1]

Yes, smell can be a form of suffering.

It is not entirely clear whether things that could cause bad smells would have been present in the garden or not (since it is possible there was no physical evil of any kind),

This is my problem, how could Adam and Eve exist without digestion (and feaces), or how could the vulture feed if there were not rotting carcass’.

Or why would Adam and Eve percieve some smells and not others?

but regardless, man in his preternatural state (as he existed before the fall) had his likes and dislikes entirely in tune with the presense of goodness in a thing. In other words, all things that exist are good (spiders and flesh eating-bacteria including). Now a days, we see these things as largely repulsive, but that is because we do not see them as good. Our perception and understanding of things has been damaged by the fall, and so we see things as evil (or smell things as evil) even though they are not evil by nature, and it would be possible to not think of them as such. Adam and Eve would have seen what was good as good, and so the perception could not have been unpleasant for them, regardless of the how offense that perception would be to us now.

But does the smell itself cause suffering regardless of whether it can be percived as good or not?

I can see how a rotting carcass is good as it feeds the vultures, but the smell of the carcass itself would cause me suffering.

 

[Katholish]

But does the smell itself cause suffering regardless of whether it can be percived as good or not?

No, in most cases there would be no “objective” reason why a smell would necessarily cause pain. I image in a few cases, there could be such a reason, just as we see objective causes for pain in the sense of touch (e.g. when someone gets burned). However, this kind of sensual pain was not possible in any of the senses for preternatural man.

There clearly was a radical shift that occured in the natural world when the fall occured. For instance, how would it be possible not to have rapid change in climate, or that men wouldn’t have to till the ground and pull weeds. I think the answer is that there are other possible conditions for matter, which lacking direct experience with, we find difficult to understand–even paradoxical at times.

Matter, as far as we know, is not capable of passing through other matter (seemingly occupying the same space at the same time) yet, we have eye-witness accounts that this is what happened after Christ’s Ressurection–he passed through locked doors. Matter must be capable of existing in a glorified (or preternatural to bring it back to the point at hand) condition in which it possesses accidental properties unfamiliar to us. It remains, however, the same matter. Thus, Adam and Eve didn’t have different bodies after the fall, but their bodies had a different condition–a fallen state.

As might be obvious, all men suffer the same lack of knowledge, so that while you or I might be able to posit how such things are possible, without direct experience, it is almost impossible to truly understand.

 

[tobias]

Entropy has always been there. Stars would not shine and the ground would not produce if it were not so.

I don’t think that excrement smelled like roses in the begining, but perhaps the odor was not bothersome in the garden. At the same time, I’ve known many farmers in my life who don’t even bat an eye at smell of manure, it’s just a part of everyday life for them. perception is a big factor.