Sunni view of Caliph Yazid?

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discipleofJesus

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What is the common Sunni views of Caliph Yazid? Do they view him the same way as Shias view him? What is the difference between the Sunni view of Caliph Yazid and the Shia view of Caliph Yazid?
What is the Sunni view of Abu Sufyan and Caliph Mu’awiya? Do they view them the same way as Shias view them? What is the difference between the Sunni view of them and the Shia view of them?
 
I doubt theres a muslim shia around here… However its a good topic. I hope to see its continuation.
 
Cyber Knight:
I doubt theres a muslim shia around here… However its a good topic. I hope to see its continuation.
That’s ok. My question was for the Sunni view (with the Sunni explaining the Shia view and showing the difference with the Sunni view and describing the Sunni view). So it’s ok. I’d like to see R. Gonzales answer this and the other thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=91578 that I started on the Sunni view. I’d appreciate it if he did this.
 
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discipleofJesus:
That’s ok. My question was for the Sunni view (with the Sunni explaining the Shia view and showing the difference with the Sunni view and describing the Sunni view). So it’s ok. I’d like to see R. Gonzales answer this and the other thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=91578 that I started on the Sunni view. I’d appreciate it if he did this.
but much better if we also hear from shia perspective. 😛
 
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discipleofJesus:
Do they view him the same way as Shias view him?
In short, no.
What is the difference between the Sunni view of Caliph Yazid and the Shia view of Caliph Yazid?
The difference is that of rational, evidence-based opinion vs. irrational, emotional slander and hatred.
What is the Sunni view of Abu Sufyan and Caliph Mu’awiya?
Sunnis lament Mu’awyia’s stripping of the caliphate away from 'Ali (and the subsequent rule of Yazid) as illegitimate, as Shi’a do. Both believe it to be an inustice, but for the Shi’a it is flat-out blasphemy…much more serious. It’s because they believe 'Ali was divinely appointed to be caliph, by order of the Prophet (PBUH) himself. So to them, it is an act against God…unholy.

In Sunni Islam, the caliph should be the best Muslim in the ummah and should govern with consultation, so Mu’awyia’s and Yazid’s rule in the eyes of Sunni are against the principles of the faith, but they recognize that 'Ali held no special entitlement to rule except that he was chosen to by the ummah.

In short, in the Sunni view, the Umayyads’ actions against 'Ali were unjust and un-Islamic, while in the Shi’a view, they amounted to apostasy from Islam.

I will just add my personal views about Yazid here, and those are that while what he did in continuing the usurpation of Ali’s rightful title was wrong, as was much of his personal conduct, and including massacring the Shi’a…had Yazid not succeeded in crushing them decisively, most of the Muslim world today might be following their false doctrines.

See, while Yazid and Mu’awiyah were illegitimate rulers, they did not try to change the concept of the khilafah and other Prophetic tradition into something false. Yazid was violating the Prophet’s tradition, but he knew it and did not try to legitimize himself by saying the Prophet (PBUH) actually intended him or his family to rule…or something crazy like that. On the other hand, that was exactly what the Shi’a were doing by trying to claim that the caliphate is the exclusive right of the Prophet’s family, and was entitled to 'Ali…and other things which are plainly false and not backed up by Prophetic tradition and sayings, historically.
 
Thanks for your reply Shenango.
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Shenango:
I will just add my personal views about Yazid here, and those are that while what he did in continuing the usurpation of Ali’s rightful title was wrong, as was much of his personal conduct, and including massacring the Shi’a…had Yazid not succeeded in crushing them decisively, most of the Muslim world today might be following their false doctrines.
What about Imam Hussein, the grandchild of Muhammad, though?

You said
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Shenango:
had Yazid not succeeded in crushing them decisively, most of the Muslim world today might be following their false doctrines.
Do you believe that Imam Hussein taught false doctrines?

What is the difference between the Shia view of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein and the Sunni view of them?

What is the difference between the Shia view of Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad, and the Sunni view?

What about Abu Sufyan? What is the difference between the Sunni view of him and the Shia view of him?
 
Shena, pls explain about false doctrines you were talking about? And why would sunni consider shia is a false belief to see both of you share same prophet and everything seems coming from the same root?
 
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discipleofJesus:
What about Imam Hussein, the grandchild of Muhammad, though?
The fact that Hussein was the Prophet’s grandson means nothing. There’s no royal family of Islam. He was a Muslim like all others. Now I don’t know that Hasan and Hussein, in trying to claim succession to their father’s caliphate were fully motivated by Shi’a ideology or not…and if they weren’t they weren’t any better than what Mu’awiya and Yazid were doing. But their Shi’a supporters most definitely were, which is what necessitated their defeat.

Again, both sides were wrong, but what the Shi’a were claiming as doctrine was anathema. Yazid wasn’t making false claims. From a Sunni point of view though, anyone claiming right to caliphate after 'Ali Bin Abu Talib is illegitimate.
Do you believe that Imam Hussein taught false doctrines?
I don’t know that Hussein was claiming the caliphate based on Shi’a doctrine, as a sense of entitlement or not. Maybe he was just defending his father’s honor. But the doctrines espoused by his followers were very dangerous.
What is the difference between the Shia view of Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein and the Sunni view of them?
In Sunni Islam, Hussein is just a normal Muslim, equal to all other believers (and we don’t call him “Imam”).

In Shi’a Islam, he is revered as one of Ahl-ul Bayt (literally “People of the House”), the Prophet’s family and blood descendants, which to Shi’a are like a royal family, an aristocracy not too different from the relationship between the British people today and their royal family.

He’s also seen as rightful caliph, and like his brother Hassan and his father 'Ali, he is divinely inspired , infallible and embodies the spirit of the Prophet (PBUH).
What is the difference between the Shia view of Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad, and the Sunni view?
Everything is the same as for Hussein, except for the fact that Shi’a don’t view her as caliph, obviously. But nevertheless, she is touched by the divine as well, and today the Shi’a venerate her much in the same way Catholics and Orthodox do their saints. She is the Shi’a equivalent of a saint.
What about Abu Sufyan? What is the difference between the Sunni view of him and the Shia view of him?
Abu Sufyan is viewed bittersweetly in Sunni Islam, because he opposed and caused so much hardship and suffering for the Prophet (PBUH) during most of his mission. He eventually accepted Islam though, shortly before the Prophet’s death. Technically that clears him of all the wrong he had done before (and even the Prophet (PBUH) himself exonerated him), but to say that modern Muslims’ impressions of him are totally uncolored by the evil he engaged in during most of his life would be less than honest. May God forgive him and all of us.

I don’t know what the Shi’a view of him is.
 
Cyber Knight:
Shena, pls explain about false doctrines you were talking about? And why would sunni consider shia is a false belief to see both of you share same prophet and everything seems coming from the same root?
Hey Cyber Knight,

Please don’t call me “Shena”…I’m not a girl, and that’s not my name.

I didn’t mean to characterize Shi’a Islam as “false belief” to mean that Shi’as aren’t Muslims. Most Sunnis still consider Shi’as Muslims (including I). The doctrines of Shi’a Islam are false to Sunnis as Catholic doctrine is false to Protestants in Christianity. Really, the criticisms Protestants make of Catholicism are so identical to the ones Sunnis make of Shi’as, it will surprise you.

Basically, the false doctrines of the Shi’as boil down to the questions of who has divine authority on earth and what constitutes a valid source of doctrine in theology.
 
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Shenango:
Again, both sides were wrong, but what the Shi’a were claiming as doctrine was anathema. Yazid wasn’t making false claims. From a Sunni point of view though, anyone claiming right to caliphate after 'Ali Bin Abu Talib is illegitimate.
I’m not sure I understand, why can’t anyone claim the caliphate after Ali Bin Abu Talib? What makes you believe that there was only meant to be 4 caliphs with Ali being the last?

What about Mu’awiya? Wasn’t he a legitimate caliph?

Aren’t Muslims, when they have the opportunity, supposed to have a caliph who leads the Muslims always? i.e. that when they don’t have one, they are lacking a leader that they are meant to have?
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Shenango:
In Shi’a Islam, he is revered as one of Ahl-ul Bayt (literally “People of the House”), the Prophet’s family and blood descendants, which to Shi’a are like a royal family, an aristocracy not too different from the relationship between the British people today and their royal family.

He’s also seen as rightful caliph, and like his brother Hassan and his father 'Ali, he is divinely inspired , infallible and embodies the spirit of the Prophet (PBUH).
Are you sure about this? That they believe he “embodies the spirit of the Prophet”? What do you mean by he “embodies the spirit of the Prophet”?

Do they believe this about all the Imams or just Ali?

Also, how do Sunnis view the Shia Imams? Do they think highly of them, that they were righteous men, and good Islamic scholars?

Do they believe that any taught false doctrines? If so, which ones?

Is their a particular Shia Imam that Sunnis regard as especially teaching false doctrines?

How do Sunnis view the sixth Shia Imam? Did he teach false doctrines? etc
 
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discipleofJesus:
I’m not sure I understand, why can’t anyone claim the caliphate after Ali Bin Abu Talib?
Because 'Ali Bin Abu Talib was the last caliph who was elected and governed by consultation of the Muslim ummah, as required by the Qur’an. All others after him are illegitimate because they did not meet this requirement.
What about Mu’awiya? Wasn’t he a legitimate caliph?
No, though Mu’awiya became the de facto caliph, he is not and never will be legitimate either in Sunni or Shi’a eyes, because he was not elected, and nor did he govern with the consulation of those governed. He seized and retained power in autocratic fashion.
Aren’t Muslims, when they have the opportunity, supposed to have a caliph who leads the Muslims always? i.e. that when they don’t have one, they are lacking a leader that they are meant to have?
Clearly, but a major hurdle to that would be political unity of the Muslim ummah. What good is having a caliph when Muslims are today divided into more than 60 separate countries, some arch enemies of each other, and in various other ways? That would be a toothless caliph if there ever was one.
That they believe he “embodies the spirit of the Prophet”? What do you mean by he “embodies the spirit of the Prophet”?
What I mean is that the Shi’a believe God’s guidance and inspiration passes infallibly from the Prophet (PBUH) down a long line of successors from his descendants, from among whom are chosen the Shi’a Imams. I’m not talking about the physical spirit of the Prophet (PBUH).

But the Shi’a Imam, by being the current leader of the ummah possessed with Godly/Prophetic guidance to lead and arbitrate doctrine, in a sense becomes the physical substitute for the Prophet (PBUH) in our own day. That way there is always someone with prophetic guidance/divine inspiration to lead the ummah, even though Muhammad (PBUH) was the last prophet. The Shi’a Imam effectively becomes the unofficial prophet of his time, though the Shi’a will never admit to this fact and always seek to downplay it.

It is exactly like the doctrine of the Catholic Church, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit being passed on from Jesus (PBUH) to the Apostles down the line of papal successors, so that Apostolic Tradition becomes a living one as embodied in the current pope.

In much the same way, for Shi’as a ruling by a current ayatollah or a book written by him is as equally authoritative for determining doctrine as are the Prophet’s Hadiths, though they will stop short of putting them on par with the Qur’an.
Do they believe this about all the Imams or just Ali?
All of them. It passed from the Prophet (PBUH) to Ali to his sons, and so on.
Also, how do Sunnis view the Shia Imams? Do they think highly of them, that they were righteous men, and good Islamic scholars?
In general, they are accepted as fellow Muslims and respected as scholars, especially Ja’far Al-Sadiq, who founded the Ja’fari school of jurisprudence, and to a lesser extent Musa Al-Kazim, though of course all their imamate-related roles are rejected.
Do they believe that any taught false doctrines? If so, which ones?
Anything imamate-related that may have been taught by them would have been considered false by Sunnis, but that’s not justification for thowing out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.
Is their a particular Shia Imam that Sunnis regard as especially teaching false doctrines?
Not that I know of, but I could be wrong.
 
Thanks again for your answers Shenango. I appreciate that you have taken the time and effort to answer them.
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Shenango:
Because 'Ali Bin Abu Talib was the last caliph who was elected and governed by consultation of the Muslim ummah, as required by the Qur’an.
Where in the Quran does it make this requirement?
 
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discipleofJesus:
Where in the Quran does it make this requirement?
Qur’an 42:38

Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance;

This verse is interpreted as commanding the Prophet (PBUH) to establish a government based on his leadership in consultation with his Companions (the Sahabah), which at the time comprised most of the ummah. This was the model established by the Prophet (PBUH), and to be followed by the Islamic State.
 
Where did Sunnis get the idea that that are always, when they have the opportunity, supposed to have a caliph who leads the Muslims?

Is there something in the Quran and/or Hadith that prescribes this? If so, where?
 
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discipleofJesus:
Where did Sunnis get the idea that that are always, when they have the opportunity, supposed to have a caliph who leads the Muslims?

Is there something in the Quran and/or Hadith that prescribes this? If so, where?
‘that that’ was meant to be ‘that they’
 
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discipleofJesus:
Where did Sunnis get the idea that that are always, when they have the opportunity, supposed to have a caliph who leads the Muslims?

Is there something in the Quran and/or Hadith that prescribes this? If so, where?
In addition to the Qur’anic verse I cited, there are also several Hadiths where the Prophet (PBUH) discusses the concept of caliphateship, and where he commands all Muslims to follow the caliph, whoever he may be. Basically, it’s such that those Hadiths can only be properly understood if there always was a caliph. He stressed it as an important concept.

There may be more direct and stronger proofs, but I don’t have them off the top of my head, but what I have said above is also true.
 
prophet Mohammad has said that there will be 12 amir that will rule the world. These hadiths are in the major sunni hadith books, major shia hadith books, and also the bible. It is a hadith that is universally affect amongst most muslims.

The sunnis have the 4 rashida caliphates starting with abu bakr, Umar ibn khattab, Uthman ibn affan, and Ali Ibn Abu Talib.

The shia have the 12 imams the shia imams start with Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Hasan Ibn Ali, Hussein Ibn Ali, Ali ibn Hussein, Mohammad Ibn Ali, Jaffar Ibn Mohammad, Musa Ibn Jaffar, Ali Ibn Musa, Mohammad Ibn Ali Ibn Mohammad, Hasan ibn Ali and Mahdi (as)

The word shia is used in the quran but the word sunni is not.

Abu sufyan was the sworn enemy of the prophet and fought against prophet mohammad for years. Muwiayah Ibn Abu Sufyan is the son of Abu Sufyan. Muwiayah Ibn abu Sufyan fought prophet Ali Ibn Abu Talib and also Hasan Ibn Ali. . Yazid Ibn Muwiayah was the son of Muwiayah Ibn Sufyan and he fought against Hussein Ibn Ali.
 
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