Supposed shortage of priests

[NPC]

It seems to me that some people - especially those whom, I suspect, are in favour of abolishing compulsory celibacy or women priests - use the argument that there is a worldwide shortage of priests in order to substantiate their view that the Church needs to change before this ‘trend’ will reverse itself. However, my understanding of the situation is that the vocations crisis is not a worldwide crisis, rather it is one affecting mainly Western countries at this time, while vocations in Africa and Asia are flourishing. Indeed, in Ireland we seem to be slowly recovering from the lack of vocations with slight increases over the past three years in the numbers of men entering the National Seminary at St Patricks College in Maynooth.

Is there any resource from which I might be able to get a clear picture of overall world trends which show the situation as it actually stands? Any help, references or links greatly appreciated! Many thanks.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Well, I do know that my archdiocses has several priests from India here on a permanent bases. I don’t know it that helps or not.

 

[agapewolf]

There was a seminarian in our seminary who was studying for Oklahoma who was from Nigeria. He said there was a waiting list of 4000 to get into their seminary. They consider USA to be a missionary country, and Oklahoma is a top missionary state. (something like 3% Catholic).

 

[Sir_Anthony]

Well, there is a shortage, per se in the average age of priests in America is in the 50’s. However, the shortage is largely a manmade created dilemna. Since Vatican II, half of America’s seminaries have closed, not too mention in the late 60’s saw a massive exodus of priests. Whether Vatican II is to blame or not is not the issue. It is the culture that changed in the 60’s that unleashed the sexual revolution and everything else, which mocks holiness in the West. In addition, the process for admission into seminaries have changed, one of them being a psychological profile, which itself isn’t a bad thing, however instead of a Catholic psychologists they are sent to secular ones, and well modern psychologists have different opinions on things like sexuality, so if a pious man says he opposes let’s say contraception or homosexuality, he will probably be written up as being sexually immature or something of that sort. In addition, the seminary culture is abhorrant, my old priest told me of the corruption of the seminary he went to in Kentucky.

The interesting thing is that the conservative Catholic Diocese like that of Omaha, Nebraska have consecrated on average about five priest a year, while typical liberal Diocese like Dayton, Ohio has consecrated only one priest in the past five years. If you want something to read, read Goodbye, Good Men.

Also, the Austin Diocese where I used to live in has imported a lot of Indian and African priests over the year, which actually I like. I am more fond of the Nigerian and Indian priests I have had than American priests, because they get it.

 

[bpbasilphx]

FWIW, there is also a priest shortage among the Orthodox, who allow married men to become priests.

 

[debraran]

cbsnews.com/htdocs/catholic_crisis/framesource_charts.html

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3441821.ece

I know in my area, 2 church’s had to combine and each have 1 priest instead of 2. They might have to close one of them in the future but for now, they share. We have a new priest from Nigeria, 5 were ordained 2 years ago in our area, but we could have used much more. What worry’s me is the age of most of the local priests…55-up it seems.
The one church that is doing well, is Dominican and has plenty of young to older friars to say mass 3 times a week. That gives me solace and hope.

 

[Nino]

A fine but disturbing book a few years back was titled as I recall…Goodby good priests" this was an indept investigation into the seminary problem in America…it seems Satan had his agents in vital positions and discouraged certain types of candidates for the priesthood while doing the opposite for the other kind…and this ‘other kind’ may well have been the type that came to our school…disguised as priests and becoming the school chaplain or principal…man these guys were not christian much less Catholic! What happened up in Ma has been devastating to believers up there and the previous pope actually placed the cardinal into a plush job in Rome…inspite or …no that sounds too harse but what to think…yes we hear of other branches of the tree doing quite well…the American RCC was flourishing up until 1958…after Pope Piusx11 passed on they came out of the woodwork and these termits are still chewing away at the bark of Peter…

 

[Sir_Anthony]

In addition to the Orthodox having shortages, Anglicans also have shortages despite allowing both women and openly gays to be priests. Protestant seminaries are also at the lowest ever. This is indicative of the age we live people, the harvest is great but few workers to collect it.

 

[kyria]

I am more fond of the Nigerian and Indian priests I have had than American priests, because they get it.

One thing I have noticed about priests who are coming from overseas is they have a humility that seems to stand out more then the Western priests. They also seem to I don’t know what is the best words to use for this, but a deeper spirituality and faith about them. Many seem to come from very poor areas so not sure if this has something to do with their humility. Some of the younger priests I have come across seem to have a more vibrant spirituality about them but not necessarily the humility I see in overseas priests.

Maybe there is a reason that many Western countries are having more overseas priests come in. In all honesty I am wondering if there is something that they need to impart to us, at this stage I see humility as something that a lot of Westerners haven’t really grasped, and I am sorry if this offends anyone, but this is what I am noticing.

Another thing I noticed, being a Charismatic, and whom thus attends various charismatic masses when she can, is that most of the people who attend many of these events are of indian or other European descent, and I have noticed the level of faith and belief with this population exeeds anything I have seen in the Western Catholics. At one of these masses, my mum, children and I were virtually the only anglo saxons. There was such a deep level of faith amoungst this crowd I actually felt it.

So far from a personal perspective, and I emphasise my personal perspective, I believe the Western world lacks the level of faith, spirituality and humility that is needed to be ‘breeding’ more priests.

 

[thedavidwilson]

It seems to me that some people - especially those whom, I suspect, are in favour of abolishing compulsory celibacy or women priests - use the argument that there is a worldwide shortage of priests in order to substantiate their view that the Church needs to change before this ‘trend’ will reverse itself. However, my understanding of the situation is that the vocations crisis is not a worldwide crisis, rather it is one affecting mainly Western countries at this time, while vocations in Africa and Asia are flourishing. Indeed, in Ireland we seem to be slowly recovering from the lack of vocations with slight increases over the past three years in the numbers of men entering the National Seminary at St Patricks College in Maynooth.

Is there any resource from which I might be able to get a clear picture of overall world trends which show the situation as it actually stands? Any help, references or links greatly appreciated! Many thanks.

Another data point in that the Seminary of the Institute of Christ the Soverign King is having to turn away candidates due to a lack of funds. Orthodox seminaries (and convents/monestaries) who specialize in the latin Mass seem to have not shortage of interest.

Perhaps it is time we returned to being the Catholic Church rather than trying to imitate other heretic christian faith communities.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
A fine but disturbing book a few years back was titled as I recall…Goodby good priests" this was an indept investigation into the seminary problem in America.**

The name of the book was Goodbye, Good Men, and several conservative publications examined his claims and did not find his assertions to be always accurate (to put it sweetly).

 

[1234]

It seems to me that some people - especially those whom, I suspect, are in favour of abolishing compulsory celibacy or women priests - use the argument that there is a worldwide shortage of priests in order to substantiate their view that the Church needs to change before this ‘trend’ will reverse itself. However, my understanding of the situation is that the vocations crisis is not a worldwide crisis, rather it is one affecting mainly Western countries at this time, while vocations in Africa and Asia are flourishing. Indeed, in Ireland we seem to be slowly recovering from the lack of vocations with slight increases over the past three years in the numbers of men entering the National Seminary at St Patricks College in Maynooth.

Is there any resource from which I might be able to get a clear picture of overall world trends which show the situation as it actually stands? Any help, references or links greatly appreciated! Many thanks.

check out CARA --Center for Research in the Apostolate–based at Georgetown Univ. They are the #1 sociology research center in Catholicism, probably in the world.

cara.georgetown.edu/

 

[ASimpleSinner]

**
A fine but disturbing book a few years back was titled as I recall…Goodby good priests" this was an indept investigation into the seminary problem in America.**

The name of the book was Goodbye, Good Men, and several conservative publications examined his claims and did not find his assertions to be always accurate (to put it sweetly).

Here, here!

…There is too much evidence of the abuse of authority in certain dioceses and seminaries to dismiss Rose’s claims as baseless. It is still the case, even in a seminary with a reputation for orthodoxy such as St. Charles, that seminarians would not openly admit to members of the formation committee that they attended a licit (under the Ecclesia Dei indult) Tridentine liturgy for fear of being branded a “reactionary” and hounded out. I know many priests and seminarians who were subjected to harassment similar to that which Rose describes. I personally was turned away by a Midwestern seminary in the mid-1980’s for being “rigid”, “doctrinaire”, and “lacking in pastoral sensitivity.” These terms are recognized “code words” for describing seminarians and candidates who are loyal to Church teaching and discipline, and are attached to traditional forms of piety and devotion. The genius of using such terms is that they do have a legitimate use: There really is such a thing as being rigid or inflexible; there really are priests who lack sensitivity to people’s needs or situations. By co-opting and re-defining such words, those who wished to advance their own agenda were able to masquerade as agents of the Church. Rose is correct in identifying the existence of these people and their agenda and the damage they caused.

But while Rose may be correct in certain respects, and while his claims have foundation, neither are they entirely accurate, and his methods are at least questionable. The first and most basic problem is his technique: He piles on horror story after horror story, relying on the weight of the indignation aroused in the reader to carry his point. There is a great deal of narrative and relatively little analysis until the last two chapters of the book. His conclusion seems to be that the climate of experimentation and dissent of the 70’s and 80’s stifled or sidetracked many vocations to the priesthood. He further concludes that orthodoxy and reverence provide a fertile breeding ground for vocations. These statements are certainly true, but they did not require a 360 page litany of horror stories in order to be demonstrated.

One difficulty in dealing with the allegations of ex-seminarians is that of checking facts. Often when a man leaves or is dismissed from the seminary with good cause, the seminary officials are bound either canonically or by the common duty of charity to remain silent about the reasons for his departure. That leaves the author with only the ex-seminarian’s version of the story. From the standpoint of journalistic accuracy, this is a highly problematic situation. Just as in any other area of reporting, one simply cannot rely on one person’s version of an event. A case in point: while in seminary I knew a seminarian who was quite devout: he prayed for literally hours of the day in chapel. However, he did this at the cost of the complete neglect of his studies. When confronted by brother seminarians and seminary officials about this problem, he was dismissive, saying that he didn’t “need to bother about that stuff”. What mattered, he said, was that he be holy. This man was eventually dismissed, and rightly so. While it is certainly true that seminarians should strive for holiness, the church also expects them to be diligent in their studies. But after his dismissal, this man told anyone who asked (and some that didn’t) that he had left because they “wouldn’t let him pray.”

It is certainly conceivable that a man dismissed from a seminary might “color” the facts to make himself appear in a more favorable light. Furthermore, “orthodoxy” in a seminarian isn’t necessarily enough. A man could be perfectly orthodox and nonetheless entirely unfit for the priesthood. The Church, in documents such as the Program for Priestly Formation and Pastores Dabo Vobis (I Will Give You Shepherds), makes it clear that suitable candidates for the priesthood must have and develop a whole range of intellectual, spiritual, and psychological qualities, as well as doctrinal orthodoxy and piety.

Rose does not take adequate account of these precautions, and can be shown not to have checked his facts in some instances, and thus he has a very serious credibility problem. I know some of the individuals mentioned in the book. Most are known to me as men of integrity and truthfulness, and their stories are presented accurately. But there is also evidence of inaccuracy and perhaps even selective attention to the facts. I also know individuals that Rose interviewed for this book, again reliable men of integrity, whose version of events would have called into question certain accounts found in the book. Rose omitted their version from his book: one can only conclude that Rose selectively presented only the evidence that tended towards his conclusion. Furthermore, he relies upon testimony which is known to be unreliable or even untruthful…

SOURCE: culturewars.com/2002/may02_ggm.html

 

[Dale_M]

However, my understanding of the situation is that the vocations crisis is not a worldwide crisis, rather it is one affecting mainly Western countries at this time, while vocations in Africa and Asia are flourishing.

By Western standards, there is a priest shortage worldwide. We in the North America and Europe have a low ratio of worshiper per priest. Places such as South America, Central America, Africa etc all put up with a much higher ratio of worshipers per priest.

But yes, the numbers of priests have been dropping in Western countries, while everywhere else the number of priests is growing, sometimes dramatically.
bcm.bc.edu/issues/summer_2005/c21_hoge.html

 

[Augustine]

We in the North America and Europe have a low ratio of worshiper per priest. Places such as South America, Central America, Africa etc all put up with a much higher ratio of worshipers per priest.

Indeed, we are better served than in Latin America, where Catholicism has flourished for centuries and even shaped the cultures. Interestingly enough, while the total number of priests is on the rise in underdeveloped countries, it’s falling in affluent countries.

 

[bpbasilphx]

It seems to me that some people - especially those whom, I suspect, are in favour of abolishing compulsory celibacy or women priests - use the argument that there is a worldwide shortage of priests in order to substantiate their view that the Church needs to change before this ‘trend’ will reverse itself.

**There are six Eastern Catholic Churches in my city.

Three of them (including the one I attend) have married priests. (And they all have married deacons.)

I see nothing wrong with ordaining a married man to the priesthood. Both those ordained after choosing marriage and those ordained after choosing celibacy have different and complementary gifts to exercise in their ministries for the good of the Church.

My opinion (if anyone were to step out from behind a bush and ask me) is that the Church needs both married and celibate priests.**

 

[edwest2]

The supposed shortage of priests need to be looked at on a global level:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1000750.htm

Things are improving. In the United States, the Baby Boomers are now past their child-bearing years, but the young are embracing Catholic orthodoxy.

Peace,
Ed