S
Stubborn
Guest
do animals and angels have them
- Status
S
Stubborn
Guest
they must have souls just to live right
J
jesusismyrock
Guest
This is to try and get answers for my best friend because he was not sure how to ask a question in the proper manner and I am very curious as well.
Actually it is more of a statement really.
Animals must have souls. Otherwise they would not be able to live, because you cannot have life without God, and God lives in your soul. Therefore things such as plants and animals must have a soul. Not a soul like human beings have, because they are not given the ability to reason, but surely God must have created them with souls because they are living breathing things that need God and Oxygen in order to survive.
Please ask questions and give comments/suggestions.
Please do not be rude or ugly, this may become a debate as long as it sticks to the original topic.
May God Bless You and Yours !!!
Actually it is more of a statement really.
Animals must have souls. Otherwise they would not be able to live, because you cannot have life without God, and God lives in your soul. Therefore things such as plants and animals must have a soul. Not a soul like human beings have, because they are not given the ability to reason, but surely God must have created them with souls because they are living breathing things that need God and Oxygen in order to survive.
Please ask questions and give comments/suggestions.
Please do not be rude or ugly, this may become a debate as long as it sticks to the original topic.
May God Bless You and Yours !!!
N
Nickkname
Guest
There are four classes of spirits:
Angels
Demons
Souls
Animal spirits
Animal spirit (spirit = life) is the life of the animal. It’s not a ghost but just life, that which keeps the animal alive. When the animal dies, so dose the spirit, because it’s not an immortal spirit, which angels, demons, and souls are.
Here is where theological speculation comes: I believe the animal spirit is corporal, because, I think, a spiritual being (spirit) cannot die, since its superior to the space-time continuum.
Angels
Demons
Souls
Animal spirits
Animal spirit (spirit = life) is the life of the animal. It’s not a ghost but just life, that which keeps the animal alive. When the animal dies, so dose the spirit, because it’s not an immortal spirit, which angels, demons, and souls are.
Here is where theological speculation comes: I believe the animal spirit is corporal, because, I think, a spiritual being (spirit) cannot die, since its superior to the space-time continuum.
J
jesusismyrock
Guest
This still does not make any sense. For in order for one thing to be alive, to be able to live and breathe, it needs God. And God dwells in the soul.
I do not believe that God created animals as temporary creatures, if he intended for them to live, then just like when God thought of us and created us before we were conceived, I am sure that he would have done the same thing with the animals… God would not have created something just so that it could die and perish, God created all things that they may grow and live with him.
Now of course as I said before, Animals and Plants cannot have the same kind of soul as human beings because they were not Created in His Image and Likeness as humans were, but they must have some form of a soul.
If God intended from the very beginning for Adam to live in eternity with him, then surely when he created the animals he intended for them to live in eternity with him as well. God trying to pair Adam with the animals gives as a great example, but then God saw that because the animals were NOT created in the Image and Likeness of God and Adam WAS created in the Image and Likeness of God an animal was not capable of being a suitable partner for Adam. Thus God cast the deep sleep over Adam and from his rib he created another being in the Image and likeness of God (Himself) knowing that they would be able to reproduce with egg and sperm from each other to continue to create living beings in the Image and likeness of God.
N
Nickkname
Guest
God is in everything, and everything is in Him. And only human beings have souls.
God created animals and all inanimate things in the universe for man’s sake. He did not create them to live as we are meant to live, that is, for Him. They are His creatures, yes, and by their mere existence they give Him glory, but He created them for man’s sake.
Scientifically and theologically speaking, animals don’t die. Scientifically speaking, an animal’s body decomposes and becomes food for other animals and insects, and it feeds the earth so to speak. It’s all a part of the nutrion cycle. Now, theologically speaking, an animal cannot die because it dose not have a soul, and death is the separation of the soul from the body.
No, He created the animals for man’s sake. Beyond that, we do not know if God will bring animals back to life after the general resurrection, whether or not He intends animals to exist for eternity with man. In that matter, it’s no longer Church teaching but merely private meditation and theological speculation.
Man is not just animal, he is also spirit. He is animal-spirit, created in the likeness of Jesus Christ, the God-Man. God created man in His Image, Jesus. The Son is the Image of the Father, and Jesus is the Son Incarnate.
G
Gamera
Guest
A soul is an animating principle. The Catholic view is that among living creatures only man has a spiritual soul. Animals have a material soul – “material” not in the sense of tangibility, but in the sense of being restricted to the material world.
A soul is the animating principle of a living thing, so all living things have souls in that sense of the word, but material souls extinguish upon death while man’s spiritual soul is immortal.
A soul is the animating principle of a living thing, so all living things have souls in that sense of the word, but material souls extinguish upon death while man’s spiritual soul is immortal.
N
Nickkname
Guest
Thanks for the clarification and correction. ^___^
L
LilyM
Guest
God created plants. They are as alive as animals, breathe and excrete and feed - and even communicate with each other and feel pain (in a fashion) - so why isn’t anyone arguing that there will be carrots or oak trees in heaven?
Somehow with plants, although they are every bit as alive as animals, we are more willing to accept that they don’t have IMMORTAL souls that are destined to last eternally, even though they do have souls (depending on your definition).
Somehow with plants, although they are every bit as alive as animals, we are more willing to accept that they don’t have IMMORTAL souls that are destined to last eternally, even though they do have souls (depending on your definition).
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**If animals had souls, we where not allowed to eat them. Jesus had lamb too on last supper and before.
And God doesn’t live in our souls; He lives in His everlasting Kingdome. but He is ready to live with and within. Could anyone imagine God living in the soul of an atheist?!
God created all there is, but only humans alone are created in the image and likeness of God with a soul. The soul is this human. His body is simply the diving coat he needs to survive in our rough material world, that follows strict physical rules.
We where before we where born, as God said in Jeremia 1:5: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
Nobody would imagine anything living has a soul – think of a snake or flea or worm and what about living illmakers like virus and so on.
It’s clear. The creation of humans differs a lot to all the rest that had been made for humans
WITHOUT A SOUL.
Else God wouldn’t have said in Genesis 1:28: 28 “Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
We can not rule over souls!
Besides: God wouldn’t have said in Acts 10:13 (and others) " Kill and eat."
**
And God doesn’t live in our souls; He lives in His everlasting Kingdome. but He is ready to live with and within. Could anyone imagine God living in the soul of an atheist?!
God created all there is, but only humans alone are created in the image and likeness of God with a soul. The soul is this human. His body is simply the diving coat he needs to survive in our rough material world, that follows strict physical rules.
We where before we where born, as God said in Jeremia 1:5: Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.
Nobody would imagine anything living has a soul – think of a snake or flea or worm and what about living illmakers like virus and so on.
It’s clear. The creation of humans differs a lot to all the rest that had been made for humans
WITHOUT A SOUL.
Else God wouldn’t have said in Genesis 1:28: 28 “Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
We can not rule over souls!
Besides: God wouldn’t have said in Acts 10:13 (and others) " Kill and eat."
**
M
Michael_David
Guest
Perhaps being ‘Alive’ is getting in the way of ‘having a soul’.
People, animals, plants and even a virus are alive. We all live by the rules on this Earth for survival (as Bruno so aptly put it… nice to see you again Bruno.) God created us all and everything. So that alive/living function exists in all. Whether we are live born, or sprout from a seed, grow, reproduce, and die again, we are inherently doing as God has designed in His creation. Man has been able to cross-pollenate plants to produce hybrids, not that plants would not be able to do that naturally by close proximity; animals also have been cross-breed, same as plants, for mans purposes, again, this could happen naturally; even Humans are hybrids, as we multiply outside of our immediate family.
Here we are with a soul, meant to live with God directly, partakers of His radiance, the first reason for the Garden of Eden and Adam. And, just to speculate, God was maybe lonely, so He created Adam for company… it wasn’t until Adam also became lonely (even with all that was created)(Adam had one of God’s traits with His image) that God created Eve (for a companion to Adam). Again, to speculate, if all that God had created up to that point was fine and good, but He still did not have one like Himself (for a companion) to associate with Him, something was missing yet. That hole in the heart still needed to be filled. It is with Adam (Humans) that God made him and us in His image… prior to that, it was His creation (diverse and plentiful)… perhaps with Man in mind as the ‘finale’.
This also shows us what God would like of us… be His companions… not merely His creation. To get close to Him; to share the good times and the bad times with Him; to be partners (as He gave Adam full rights of all that He had created)(even as all this still followed the inherent rules designed into it), to be friends; to be…
Who says there won’t be animals and plants in Heaven? Who says there will be? Only God knows! In Revelation vs 21 into 22, where it speaks of the new Heaven and new Earth… there is a tree of life and a stream of water… no mention of animals, or fish, or other creations, altho they could be there.
It comes down to (more so for us in the here and now), do we want God, or His creation? If it is His creation and He chooses not to make it again, we have lost both. If it is Him (the Creator), who says it cannot be made again? We may have both!
And perhaps, just because my pet has a place in my heart, it may come along with my soul (where ever it goes) as part of Love. Perhaps the forest I walk in will also. Perhaps, once with God, none of this will even come to mind… or it can be created again (come back to life). Who knows? God does!
People, animals, plants and even a virus are alive. We all live by the rules on this Earth for survival (as Bruno so aptly put it… nice to see you again Bruno.) God created us all and everything. So that alive/living function exists in all. Whether we are live born, or sprout from a seed, grow, reproduce, and die again, we are inherently doing as God has designed in His creation. Man has been able to cross-pollenate plants to produce hybrids, not that plants would not be able to do that naturally by close proximity; animals also have been cross-breed, same as plants, for mans purposes, again, this could happen naturally; even Humans are hybrids, as we multiply outside of our immediate family.
Here we are with a soul, meant to live with God directly, partakers of His radiance, the first reason for the Garden of Eden and Adam. And, just to speculate, God was maybe lonely, so He created Adam for company… it wasn’t until Adam also became lonely (even with all that was created)(Adam had one of God’s traits with His image) that God created Eve (for a companion to Adam). Again, to speculate, if all that God had created up to that point was fine and good, but He still did not have one like Himself (for a companion) to associate with Him, something was missing yet. That hole in the heart still needed to be filled. It is with Adam (Humans) that God made him and us in His image… prior to that, it was His creation (diverse and plentiful)… perhaps with Man in mind as the ‘finale’.
This also shows us what God would like of us… be His companions… not merely His creation. To get close to Him; to share the good times and the bad times with Him; to be partners (as He gave Adam full rights of all that He had created)(even as all this still followed the inherent rules designed into it), to be friends; to be…
Who says there won’t be animals and plants in Heaven? Who says there will be? Only God knows! In Revelation vs 21 into 22, where it speaks of the new Heaven and new Earth… there is a tree of life and a stream of water… no mention of animals, or fish, or other creations, altho they could be there.
It comes down to (more so for us in the here and now), do we want God, or His creation? If it is His creation and He chooses not to make it again, we have lost both. If it is Him (the Creator), who says it cannot be made again? We may have both!
And perhaps, just because my pet has a place in my heart, it may come along with my soul (where ever it goes) as part of Love. Perhaps the forest I walk in will also. Perhaps, once with God, none of this will even come to mind… or it can be created again (come back to life). Who knows? God does!
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**Sorry to contradict, but being ‘Alive’ does not mean ‘having a soul’. God gave us a soul exclusively, as we are told in Gen 2,7.
God was not lonely, “so He created humans for company…” - for God had for some eternities heaven with its Angels. And God even without heaven, before it was created, can not have this very human feeling of “loneliness”.
Oh I often in my dog-clubs heard “Who says there won’t be animals and plants in Heaven?”
But what on earth would we need animals in heaven for, when as we know of 1 Cor 2:9 about the unspeakable beauty otherwise in heaven: “what no eye ever has seen, no ear ever has heard, no mind ever has conceived, God has prepared for those who love him” so why would they be there?! One might just the same ask „is there sin in heaven?“. NO! Not ever since Satan (Lucifer) was send to hell.
Proposing God might do His creation again, forgets the salvation we had and will never be re-enacted. Jesus told us so, as He will come back AT THE END OF TIME (End of time is no other creation).
If we say just as Bismarck said too: “…perhaps, just because my pet has a place in my heart, it may come along with my soul (where ever it goes) as part of Love”.(Bismarck said he can’t think of a heaven without his dogs and horses), we forget the overwhelming love to God that will finally overcome us then when we see God, and won’t let room for any other love. And still the joy will be greater than thinkable on earth (again 1 Cor 2:9).
A great big and joyful YES! to this word:
“Perhaps, once with God, none of this will even ever come to our mind…”
And I my long 70 years as faithful member of our church, I know, that the Holy bible answeres every question ever arose! All we have to do, is to listen and to read open-hearted
**
God was not lonely, “so He created humans for company…” - for God had for some eternities heaven with its Angels. And God even without heaven, before it was created, can not have this very human feeling of “loneliness”.
Oh I often in my dog-clubs heard “Who says there won’t be animals and plants in Heaven?”
But what on earth would we need animals in heaven for, when as we know of 1 Cor 2:9 about the unspeakable beauty otherwise in heaven: “what no eye ever has seen, no ear ever has heard, no mind ever has conceived, God has prepared for those who love him” so why would they be there?! One might just the same ask „is there sin in heaven?“. NO! Not ever since Satan (Lucifer) was send to hell.
Proposing God might do His creation again, forgets the salvation we had and will never be re-enacted. Jesus told us so, as He will come back AT THE END OF TIME (End of time is no other creation).
If we say just as Bismarck said too: “…perhaps, just because my pet has a place in my heart, it may come along with my soul (where ever it goes) as part of Love”.(Bismarck said he can’t think of a heaven without his dogs and horses), we forget the overwhelming love to God that will finally overcome us then when we see God, and won’t let room for any other love. And still the joy will be greater than thinkable on earth (again 1 Cor 2:9).
A great big and joyful YES! to this word:
“Perhaps, once with God, none of this will even ever come to our mind…”
And I my long 70 years as faithful member of our church, I know, that the Holy bible answeres every question ever arose! All we have to do, is to listen and to read open-hearted
**
G
Gamera
Guest
Bruno Shulz. your defintiion of a soul seems to imply a spiritual soul. If that’s the case, then yes, Catholics believe that only human beings have spiritual souls. In Catholic theology, the term “soul” in reference to other living things means only “animating principle,” not necessarily a spiritual soul. Neither animals nor plants have spiritual souls. But they do have an animating principle, otherwise they’d be dead.
M
Michael_David
Guest
Revelation 21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; 4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.” 5 And he who sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
This refers to both heaven and earth… passing and being made new. (recreated)
And if one reads further, we know what will not be there, as well as what will.
Bruno, I simply made a stretch (speculated), if God created us to be with Him (v 3 above), and we are created in His image (as in Genesis), what have we created to be with us? Love follows through from the beginning to the end… God’s Love for us, and our Love for…? Love is the key element here. The answer comes down to: do we have a say to what is in Heaven? Of course, if we love God, we can ask… if God loves us (He does), He may answer. But, with His spender, what else will be needed? Will our loved one’s be in heaven with us? Or? Will we be? Our action is in the here and now… if we do not get there, none of this will matter! And if we get there, (perhaps) none of this will matter!
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; 4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.” 5 And he who sat upon the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.”
This refers to both heaven and earth… passing and being made new. (recreated)
And if one reads further, we know what will not be there, as well as what will.
Bruno, I simply made a stretch (speculated), if God created us to be with Him (v 3 above), and we are created in His image (as in Genesis), what have we created to be with us? Love follows through from the beginning to the end… God’s Love for us, and our Love for…? Love is the key element here. The answer comes down to: do we have a say to what is in Heaven? Of course, if we love God, we can ask… if God loves us (He does), He may answer. But, with His spender, what else will be needed? Will our loved one’s be in heaven with us? Or? Will we be? Our action is in the here and now… if we do not get there, none of this will matter! And if we get there, (perhaps) none of this will matter!
M
MindOverMatter
Guest
If thats the case, then what does it mean to have a spiritual-soul? Isn’t “mind” an aspect of soul?
K
Katholish
Guest
I just want to second everything Gamera has said thus far. Being alive means having a soul, but not all souls are immortal/immaterial.
Why is it true that all living things have a soul? Because every material thing that exists is made up of matter and form. The form of a thing is its principle of organization–that which arranges the matter to be a certain way. If the form of something is lost, it ceases to have any unifying principle.
In living things, the form is the soul–the body the matter. Why is an animal one thing as opposed to just a bunch of cells in a group? Because it has a soul–a unifying and animating principle.
To get rather semantic, the very word “animal” comes from the latin “amina” which means “soul”. Thus, theoretically when we say “animal” we mean “thing that has a soul”.
Why is it true that all living things have a soul? Because every material thing that exists is made up of matter and form. The form of a thing is its principle of organization–that which arranges the matter to be a certain way. If the form of something is lost, it ceases to have any unifying principle.
In living things, the form is the soul–the body the matter. Why is an animal one thing as opposed to just a bunch of cells in a group? Because it has a soul–a unifying and animating principle.
To get rather semantic, the very word “animal” comes from the latin “amina” which means “soul”. Thus, theoretically when we say “animal” we mean “thing that has a soul”.
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
referring to the post before last - but still a big NO to the last posting: “all living things have a soul” - defenitely not! We are not made up of matter and form, but made of soul and dressed with a flesh-body. True, even when God made this body first and then gave us the soul as told in Genesis. But; he knew us (the soul) before he formed us in the womb.
**thanks a lot. I know. It’s in all languages alike. When people speak of soul, they in most cases speak of life itself.
But our living surrounding from a virus or simple blue-green algae up to a primate or animal with a most complicated brain like a whale - do not have souls. God wouldn’t have allowed us to eat creatures and to use them, if they had souls.
But besides:
In a Catholic forum, we’d of course refer to soul as the one and only God-given eternal “we” - the eternal “I” - the “us ourselves”, without which we wouldn’t be humans.
Our body is nothing but the flesh we have to have to survive here, (and as cannibals say – it even tastes good. I know a priest in Papua New Guinea
). But our body is not us “us ourselves” – it’s the soul that makes us to be or not to be. That really is the question.
**
**thanks a lot. I know. It’s in all languages alike. When people speak of soul, they in most cases speak of life itself.
But our living surrounding from a virus or simple blue-green algae up to a primate or animal with a most complicated brain like a whale - do not have souls. God wouldn’t have allowed us to eat creatures and to use them, if they had souls.
But besides:
In a Catholic forum, we’d of course refer to soul as the one and only God-given eternal “we” - the eternal “I” - the “us ourselves”, without which we wouldn’t be humans.
Our body is nothing but the flesh we have to have to survive here, (and as cannibals say – it even tastes good. I know a priest in Papua New Guinea
). But our body is not us “us ourselves” – it’s the soul that makes us to be or not to be. That really is the question.**
- Status