Sweden's way of dealing with the poor

[cynic]

How does an individual do all that a Government (or well organized charity) can do?

Some of us have to be at work for most of the week.

 

[freshwater]

**Hope I get this right , IWESTEN? I agree with your outlook , what you have written above . Pretty much the first kind and sensible thing I 've heard on this subject here . The rest of ya all ,sound like your out to be the one" whom is right . **Best of luck to you all . I am so happy to be a American ,where we can say what we want ,freedom of speech .
I’ve been asking a question , seems to me , Its over looked each time I ask . It was a very human , concerned for the individual ,question . Sure wish I could of had a answer back ,from any one that really knows what is the answer .
Peace ,
freshwater

 

[lwestin]

How does an individual do all that a Government (or well organized charity) can do?

Some of us have to be at work for most of the week.

Each has their own responsibilities.

A government cannot be human. That is the job/duty of a citizen. A Christian has a further duty, to sacrifice for neighbor and country out of love for God.
Personally. Not just money.

When government takes over ‘caring’, it is really about ‘control’. The people do not feel cared for because love is not involved.
Collecting high taxes leaves the populace more malleable, more dependent and easier to control.
Engels lays this tactic out clearly, as he does the dehumanizing of the populace so that all natural attachments to each other are replaced by total reliance on gov’t. Socialism uses ‘caring’ as a way to lull citizens into complacency. Its about power.

Good article on the effects of socialist purposes on western society, and the role of the Catholic church as liberator:

socon.ca/or_bust/?p=1420

Not the whole story, but something to think about and read further on.

 

[jfallaw]

Uh, I would describe Sweden’s taxes as exhorbitent.

Also, People who make more expect to pay more. They don’t expect to pay a much higher RATE of taxes. They complain when that happens.
When you are paying the gov’t to do what you should be doing out of Christian love, who are you?

A good citizen? And I DO what I should do as a good Christian; however, I like the fact that the government does it too, and I support my government. Sure, I wish I could be the one to decide where my tax dollars actually go, as most of them go to defense (offense), but, having been homeless before I know that sometimes relying on Christians will just get you further in the gutter- it was government assistance that helped me get back on my feet. Christians provided food and clothing, but jobs and education came from the government. Sad but true.

I’ve talked to so many people who get government Pell grants to go to school, then government loans to start small businesses, who then turn around and complain about the government giving their money to people who didn’t ‘earn’ it. And nobody has answered the corporate welfare question. What do you think of your taxes going to billionaire oil executives? More of them go there than to programs for the poor. Yet I never hear anyone complain about that.

 

[cynic]

Each has their own responsibilities.

A government cannot be human. That is the job/duty of a citizen. A Christian has a further duty, to sacrifice for neighbor and country out of love for God.
Personally. Not just money.
.

This sounds like a fob off. People, whether in charity or government, will have to be employed full-time to administer funds and render the service. This will involve some beuracracy.

Aside from helping out on a Saturday/Sunday afternoon, most working people are only able to write a cheque.

When government takes over ‘caring’, it is really about ‘control’. The people do not feel cared for because love is not involved.
Collecting high taxes leaves the populace more malleable, more dependent and easier to control.
Engels lays this tactic out clearly, as he does the dehumanizing of the populace so that all natural attachments to each other are replaced by total reliance on gov’t. Socialism uses ‘caring’ as a way to lull citizens into complacency. Its about power.

Good article on the effects of socialist purposes on western society, and the role of the Catholic church as liberator:

socon.ca/or_bust/?p=1420

Not the whole story, but something to think about and read further on.

Do you think the state paying for chemotherapy for the uninsured is “dehumanizing”? How about the state helping fund the schooling for children who otherwise wouldn’t get any, that dehumanizing?

In some ways I agree that healthy, working age adults should not be given any other option than working. After all, there is a way out of their situation, and it involves get a job, or 2, like everyone else.

But when people with no options are told that the help they are getting from government shouldn’t exist, that they are being “controlled”, or should rely on charity (invetibly involving less support), and, in extreme cases, should DIE rather be helped with stolen money, then that’s disturning, like some desperate, fatalistic form of reasoning so as to avoid paying a cent in tax.

 

[AmyS]

So what is your suggestion then?

I thought putting them away AND making them comfortable is a good idea. Why do people hate this idea so much?

Do you realize that some homeless people actually like the freedom of being on the streets? I used to work hard, get some of them in homes, then see them on the street the next day. I ended up being happy for places like the Salvation Army or other Mission that gave them a meal, and a place to sleep if necessary. I spoke to one lady I worked with about it, she hadn’t the confinement, she chose to live on the streets.

 

[ribozyme]

This is probably the most astute comment on Swedish socialism and its comparison to American socialism:

For a nation that is allergic to ‘socialism’ it seems that the good ol U.S. of A has lumbered itself with ‘socialism’ at its very worst.
Ie the profits have all been privatized, (which of course meant massive ‘fat-cat’ bonuses in the good times, times incidentally when the pay-packet of yer average blue-collar Joe never rose in more than 40 years), but all the losses (which are enormous and unquantifiable) have been ‘socialized so that poor ol’ Joe Sixpack will be in hock for decades (government has first claim on his pay-packet - so much for Trey’s college fund)- to fund the private deals and bargains of people he never even knew about and cared less for.
At least in the socialism practised in Sweden Sven actually gets the benefit of excellent health care and social benefits in exchange for his hard earned - and not lining the pockets of the fat-cats who muttered ‘white trash’ as they sped by in their Porsches.

I found this in someone’s blog.

parapundit.com/archives/005743.html

 

[LutheranDK]

Define exhorbitently? I make about 20,000 per year and my taxes come to about $500. No sweat off my back. My dad made about $60,000 and paid about $1,500-2,000 in taxes. Chump change.

Wait, wait wait…you make $20.000 a year and only pay $500 in taxes??? Are you kidding me??? That’s a tax rate of 2,5%!
Are you serious? Do you only pay 2,5% of your income in taxes??

I’m left speechless…we’re getting robbed here in Denmark!!

 

[LutheranDK]

I am coming to this party a bit late. Has anyone mentioned the tax rates in Sweden?

The corporate income tax is 28%. (Less than the USA.)

The **municipal **individual income tax varies from 29 - 35%.

The **national **individual income tax is an additional 20 - 25%

The VAT tax (sales tax) is 25% on most goods and services, 12% for food and 6% on sporting events admissions.

See here. (Note, this is a PDF file.)

And then there are property taxes, etc.

Finally, after all the taxes are paid, people are left with less than 30% of what they earn.

Same deal in Denmark more or less, except our sales tax is 25% regardless of what the product is…

 

[LutheranDK]

Jesus didn’t care about advancement of technology or industrialization. i think Sweden’s model is much holier than ours. it gets down to the simple task of caring for the poor, at the sacrifice of advancement (or is it). lazy or not, it accomplishes the higher task of loving neighbor. only then can you advance as a people technologically. we are skipping and leaving people behind in order to advance ourselves, which is wrong.

if it takes a thousand more years stuck in the middle ages to learn humility and compassion, so be it. a child of God can be happy in the stone age.

Jesus did not say: “Go out, and impose My will on the governments of the Earth to create Paradise here. It is not enough that you yourselves act with charity and help where you see the need. You MUST impose this on all others as well, because it it unholy to let people decide for themselves how to use the money they earned by their labor”

IF you want to go down this road, I can counter that the welfare-state is a violation of the seventh and tenth commandments…

My point: If you try to use the words of Jesus to advocate any one political system (in this case - the Social-Democrat welfare state), you misuse it. We are called as Christians to do good, not to force governments and states to be welfare-states.

 

[rpp]

Jesus did not say: “Go out, and impose My will on the governments of the Earth to create Paradise here. It is not enough that you yourselves act with charity and help where you see the need. You MUST impose this on all others as well, because it it unholy to let people decide for themselves how to use the money they earned by their labor”

IF you want to go down this road, I can counter that the welfare-state is a violation of the seventh and tenth commandments…

My point: If you try to use the words of Jesus to advocate any one political system (in this case - the Social-Democrat welfare state), you misuse it. We are called as Christians to do good, not to force governments and states to be welfare-states.

Hmm… I like your response. But I would add that we, as Christians, must use the teachings of Christ and the Church to guide us so that we can make just laws. But yes, beyond that, I do not think that the Bible or the Church advocates a particular form of government or economic system. However, it is clear that some types of governments and economic systems are inherently unjust.

 

[Brendan]

Same deal in Denmark more or less, except our sales tax is 25% regardless of what the product is…

Here in Michigan, sales tax rate is 6% for most goods. Groceries are tax exempt as are newspapers and news magazines.

Restaurant purchases are taxed.

There is also some talk about making children’s clothing tax exempt as well.

 

[LutheranDK]

Dear ribozyme
During the last Danish election, I hesitantly gave my vote to our version of the Christian Democrats.

God bless you
Tim

Even after Bodil Kornsæks (yeah, intentional “typo” - the word-play doesn’t translate - sorry English-speakers ) Judas-trick, and her attempt to turn the party into another Social Democratic party - blatantly declaring that the party would no longer pursue a ban on “abortions”, and more or less giving the left (which has always been anti-Christian) a carte blanche, declaring the party’s support for the Social Democratic leader - regardless?

No thank you. I voted for the Conservatives. But if the new president of the CD (Christian Democrats) is successful in restoring the party to its original course, I’ll be voting for them nex time…although I have a bad feeling that it’s heading over the side of the cliff…all thanks to Bodil “Judas” Kornbek…

 

[rpp]

Same deal in Denmark more or less, except our sales tax is 25% regardless of what the product is…

By the way, In the USA, the federal income tax rate varies from 0% to 35% depending on income. Because of the way the tax law is structured, only about half of the people earn enough money to pay federal income tax.

State income taxes vary from 0% to 12%. Several states, such as Alaska and Washington State, have no income tax at all.

The USA has no national sales tax. Most states have a sales tax between 5% and 10%. A few cities, like New York, have a slightly higher sales tax. Some states, like Alaska and Oregon, have no sales tax at all. Most states exclude food and prescription medicine from sales tax.

You can see that he tax burden on Americans is considerably lower than to most, if not all, Europeans.

 

[LutheranDK]

Hmm… I like your response. But I would add that we, as Christians, must use the teachings of Christ and the Church to guide us so that we can make just laws.

And what are “just laws”?
Is it just to say: “You earned this money by your own labor, but we’re gonna take it from you and give it to someone who IS able to work, but has used some lame excuse not to?”

But yes, beyond that, I do not think that the Bible or the Church advocates a particular form of government or economic system. However, it is clear that some types of governments and economic systems are inherently unjust.

Agreed. Communism is one example. Nazism another. But I don’t see a system with the greatest degree of individual personal freedom possible as inherently evil. I see more evil in the Scandinavian “nanny-state” societies than good. It is declaring people unable to manage their own affairs, and it is degrading.

 

[rpp]

And what are “just laws”?
Is it just to say: “You earned this money by your own labor, but we’re gonna take it from you and give it to someone who IS able to work, but has used some lame excuse not to?”

Agreed. Communism is one example. Nazism another. But I don’t see a system with the greatest degree of individual personal freedom possible as inherently evil. I see more evil in the Scandinavian “nanny-state” societies than good. It is declaring people unable to manage their own affairs, and it is degrading.

I believe you and I are in complete agreement in these matters.

 

[ribozyme]

And what are “just laws”?
Is it just to say: “You earned this money by your own labor, but we’re gonna take it from you and give it to someone who IS able to work, but has used some lame excuse not to?”

Agreed. Communism is one example. Nazism another. But I don’t see a system with the greatest degree of individual personal freedom possible as inherently evil. I see more evil in the Scandinavian “nanny-state” societies than good. It is declaring people unable to manage their own affairs, and it is degrading.

So do you dislike or like programs such as “arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” in Denmark? Do you think programs such as that are “degrading?”

Why do you hate the nanny state and you have to remember that there are many people who cannot manage their own affairs.

 

[LutheranDK]

So do you dislike or like programs such as “arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” in Denmark? Do you think programs such as that are “degrading?”

Why do you hate the nanny state and you have to remember that there are many people who cannot manage their own affairs.

The nanny state is degrading, because it reduces people in general to being children that need The State to look after them.
It is true that there are a few people who really have problems - and of course the state should help THEM! I am no anarcho-liberalist! (I’m somewhere between Conservative and Christian Democrat…) Even Adam Smith wanted some kind of basic security for those who were in fact actually unable to look after themselves. The Danish translation of the kind of state Adam Smith wanted is “natvægterstat” - I do not know the English word.

“Arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” is not just ONE thing. If you’re talking about those which aim at reeducation of those whose skills have become obsolete, then yes, by all means! It is not degrading to recieve education, for peace’s sake. It IS, however, degrading to be put through one lame “course” after the other which has zero relevance to any kind of future job, and which is only instituted to keep the official unemployment rates to a minimum.

Self-reliance is going to be the key to the survival of the West. We need to loose the “No worries - the state will take care of it!”-attitude, as it has made us drowsy, decadent and lethargic. And lethargy is poison for any country. It removes the desire to strive for excellence. Why bother? Even if you make it, you only get to keep between 45-30% of what you make - because the state wants to give your hard-earned money to someone else, who’s fully ABLE to work or study in order to later be able to work but have chosen not to.

We need to stand up for ourselves - to wake up from the sleep that the nanny state, and the continuing feminization of Western civilization, has forced us into. If we do not do something radical soon, our economy will crumble into dust, and we will see China and India rise to the roles that Europe and the USA has hitherto had - and within my lifetime at that…

 

[ribozyme]

The nanny state is degrading, because it reduces people in general to being children that need The State to look after them.
It is true that there are a few people who really have problems - and of course the state should help THEM! I am no anarcho-liberalist! (I’m somewhere between Conservative and Christian Democrat…) Even Adam Smith wanted some kind of basic security for those who were in fact actually unable to look after themselves. The Danish translation of the kind of state Adam Smith wanted is “natvægterstat” - I do not know the English word.

“Arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” is not just ONE thing. If you’re talking about those which aim at reeducation of those whose skills have become obsolete, then yes, by all means! It is not degrading to recieve education, for peace’s sake. It IS, however, degrading to be put through one lame “course” after the other which has zero relevance to any kind of future job, and which is only instituted to keep the official unemployment rates to a minimum.

I put “natvægterstat” in google and I think “night-watchman state” is the best translation for it. (it is not the literal translation, but it conveys the same ideas.)

A Natvægterstat is a state that carries only the most necessary tasks of society. In contrast to today’s state / parliament in Denmark, which takes care of many different areas / tasks.

translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=da&u=http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natv%25C3%25A6gterstat&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dnatv%25C3%25A6gterstat%26hl%3Den

Well, so do you think “arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” have no meaningful purpose other than reducing the unemployment number? (I mean the reeducation activities and maybe the “flex jobs”.) I thought “arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” was a good program in Denmark.

 

[LutheranDK]

I put “natvægterstat” in google and I think “night-watchman state” is the best translation for it. (it is not the literal translation, but it conveys the same ideas.)

Actually, it is almost exactly a literal translation

Well, so do you think “arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” have no meaningful purpose other than reducing the unemployment number? (I mean the reeducation activities and maybe the “flex jobs”.) I thought “arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger” was a good program in Denmark.

I believe that I just wrote that the arbejdsmarkedspolitiske foranstaltninger that consists of reeducation (and would like to add flex jobs to this…better to have a flex job than no job at all!) is meaningful. It is the rest that is a waste of ressources and manpower…and degrading to the people that have to sit through it.

I stand by my earlier statements: The nanny state carries more evils than goods.