"Taking something you have?"

[wworld]

Alright, the title is a little misleading -but it’s the only thing I could thing of for a shortened title

Anyways, A while ago I ordered the Sims Complete Collection (Valued at $25 or so) from Amazon. It was taking awhile to ship so I decided to try a torrent of the game. Unlike what I ordered, it was just the base game of The Sims (no expansions). Later I checked for the value of the base game online… $2.58 or something near there. Of course, when I actually got my order I immediately deleted the torrent.

Now, as I’ve educated myself a bit more, I know that stealing can be a grave sin. However, would what I did be considered a sin? If so, would it be considered a grave sin -since it was only valued a $2.58? Because I’ve taken really minor things before and have confessed it. When I confessed the minor items I’ve taken, I had already downloaded the torrent (and deleted it) some number of days before. If it was a minor sin, would it have been forgiven along with the other small items I’ve taken?

Again, at the time I downloaded the torrent, it seemed reasonable to me because I planned to delete it out as soon as I got my game in the mail. But now I’m second guessing myself.

 

[promethius]

Alright, the title is a little misleading -but it’s the only thing I could thing of for a shortened title

Anyways, A while ago I ordered the Sims Complete Collection (Valued at $25 or so) from Amazon. It was taking awhile to ship so I decided to try a torrent of the game. Unlike what I ordered, it was just the base game of The Sims (no expansions). Later I checked for the value of the base game online… $2.58 or something near there. Of course, when I actually got my order I immediately deleted the torrent.

Now, as I’ve educated myself a bit more, I know that stealing can be a grave sin. However, would what I did be considered a sin? If so, would it be considered a grave sin -since it was only valued a $2.58? Because I’ve taken really minor things before and have confessed it. When I confessed the minor items I’ve taken, I had already downloaded the torrent (and deleted it) some number of days before. If it was a minor sin, would it have been forgiven along with the other small items I’ve taken?

Again, at the time I downloaded the torrent, it seemed reasonable to me because I planned to delete it out as soon as I got my game in the mail. But now I’m second guessing myself.

Well, here’s the deal: in software you aren’t actually paying for the disc itself… you’re paying for licensing rights to use the software itself. The disc is only the common means of delivery.

Let’s give an example: I buy a software program. When I open the box, the disc is badly damaged and won’t read. If I have the reciept proving that I purchased the software from a valid source, and then I go online and download a copy of the software for legitimate use in the same manner as I would use my original copy, there’s VERY LITTLE argument that I’ve stolen the software. The only theft that could come in is if the software requires a unique key, and in the torrent version you used a cracked key (which would mean that when someone else buys a copy, their key would no longer work). In this case, you would have effectively stolen the second key, because your license to use the software is tied to your unique software key.

So, presuming that sims does not require a key and you did not USE a cracked key, thereby taking someone else’s license when they attempt to use the software, there’s little argument that you could be considered guilty of software theft. And no theft means no sin.

As a side note, mortal sin by theft has nothing to do with the value of the item stolen. If I download a bunch of music worth $200 while not knowing this is wrong, it might only be a venial sin. If I steal $2.58 from a homeless man while he sleeps, knowing it is grave matter and that he won’t be able to eat without this money, then it is a mortal sin.

 

[smichhertz]

Interesting scenario!

I would say you were stealing. Although you did buy the game, you did not buy the specific copy you torrented.

An analogy would be if I order a book online, then steal the book, and then after the book arrives, I destroy the stolen book / give it back.

Also, you acquired the game through illegal means. The ends don’t justify the means, just because you haven’t received what you’ve payed for doesn’t give you permission to steal it in the meantime.

It is NOT a mortal sin. Firstly, you weren’t even aware that stealing could be mortal, so without full knowledge, it can’t be a mortal sin in your case. Also, $2.58 is a small amount. It has to be of substantial worth to be considered grave. A priest once told me that they are given in seminary actual numerical values as guidelines to determining whether or not an act of stealing is mortal. But it also depends greatly on the circumstances. Like the age of the stealer, the income level, what THEY would consider valuable, etc.

 

[promethius]

An analogy would be if I order a book online, then steal the book, and then after the book arrives, I destroy the stolen book / give it back.

The only problem with your moral proposition and analogy is that in a book situation, you are paying for specific text. In software purchasing, you are not paying for a disc, or even a specific copy of the software, but rather you are paying for a license right to use that software.

Different licenses have different caveats, such as only being allowed to install on one (or other limited number of) machine(s), only having one user account, etc.

But the bottom line is, if you paid for use of software and you are NOT taking an additional license or violating the terms of that license, you are not stealing.

 

[smichhertz]

The only problem with your moral proposition and analogy is that in a book situation, you are paying for specific text. In software purchasing, you are not paying for a disc, or even a specific copy of the software, but rather you are paying for a license right to use that software.

Good point. Forget my analogy, it was a bad one.

But what about my second point? I would still argue that he is acquiring the software by illegal/immoral means. Even if it isn’t stealing (which I would still say it is), its still wrong. Consider the support he is giving to a website that allows people to steal the software, and the leechers while he is seeding. I would still argue that this is an immoral act.